Rcbs chargemaster 1500

[TattooedGun]

Currently I measure to the kernel with extruded powder, there's about 5 kernels to each 1/10th grain with N560. So I throw the charge, trickle it to as close as I can get and then use tweezers to get it to the centre of the black line each time. My balance beam is connected to a webcam, so I can see quite accurately how it moves with each kernel. I don't find this difficult or time consuming, it's just part of my quest to be as accurate as possible, although I accept others wouldn't go as far.

Have you seen this? I suspect this man cares about 1/10th grain.

I'm sure he does! but does he worry about the 0.02gr increment inaccuracies that 1/50th would give as you were implying earlier, or does he leave it at 1/10th grain accuracy and concentrate his time on being at the range and practice shooting it...

I don't know, which is why I'm asking. I'd be intrigued to know which of those top F-class shots have laboratories where they hone their ammunition, and those who get it somewhere close and rely on skill to keep them at the top of their game.

[HALODIN]

I appreciate you shoot internationally, but would you disagree that a more accurate powder load would have shot a better group or not? I understand a v-bull is a v-bull, but if you're interested in benchrest, surely the accuracy of each component is critical... No?

Halodin
You say +/- 1/10 of again makes a difference to the point of impact, i actually doubt that.
A couple of years ago i was load testing using a well known powder that had just come on the market. 140 rounds of .308 were loaded in .5 grain increments from 44 to 47 grains. the bullet was a sierra 155/2156. Testing was done at 300 and 600 yds, the rifle, an RPA quadlock, shot using sling and jacket, with normal target rifle sights.
70 rounds (10 from each increment) were fired at 300 yds and the group size accurately measured. All 70 rounds fell in a group that was 1 ½ inches wide and 2 inches high, group that would fall into the F Class V bull. In essence there was no shift of group or MPI. that proves to me that at 300 yds a load spread of 3 grains makes no significant difference. It was witnessed by a forum member.

The test was then carried out at 600 yds. All 70 shots fell in a rectangle 3 inches wide and 4 inches high. Again proving that at 600 yds a powder spread of 3 grains makes no significant difference. This is all real world shooting at real distances.
The weather conditions were almost flat calm.

At longer ranges a powder spread of .2 grain will not alter the MPI significantly. May be someone shooting off a bipod/front rest may see an MPI shift but I doubt it. I do not shoot off of rests or other such artificial aids, just pure skill and ability learnt through several decades of shooting.

[HALODIN]

Sorry I meant to write "I suspect this man cares about 1/50th grain." My guess is if he can measure to such tight tolerances he cares about them.

I'm sure he does! but does he worry about the 0.02gr increment inaccuracies that 1/50th would give as you were implying earlier, or does he leave it at 1/10th grain accuracy and concentrate his time on being at the range and practice shooting it...

I don't know, which is why I'm asking. I'd be intrigued to know which of those top F-class shots have laboratories where they hone their ammunition, and those who get it somewhere close and rely on skill to keep them at the top of their game.

[Alpha1]

It also depends on what powder is used I'm using Ramshot in .308 and 6.5 it's to fine a powder to be picking individual grains up. I don't understand why you would want to but each to there own. If it works for you that's good enough.
I reload for both calibers using the target master coupled to a lap top 1/10 of a grain is good enough for me.
For me the most important part of my set up is the Kahles scopes I have mounted on each rifle both have calibrated turrets. I can not do either rifle justice but I just love shooting them.

[HALODIN]

Yes I agree, but with a fine powder there's less (if any) variance when you throw the powder anyway. I find the same with HP-38 for my .44.

I'm testing a Kahles 624i with the AMR reticle at the moment, nice scope!

It also depends on what powder is used I'm using Ramshot in .308 and 6.5 it's to fine a powder to be picking individual grains up. I don't understand why you would want to but each to there own. If it works for you that's good enough.
I reload for both calibers using the target master coupled to a lap top 1/10 of a grain is good enough for me.
For me the most important part of my set up is the Kahles scopes I have mounted on each rifle both have calibrated turrets. I can not do either rifle justice but I just love shooting them.

[Mr_Logic]

This thread got rather busy, so I've not read all of it. But, on the subject of powder weighing accuracy, let's just say there's a lot more to it than that.

My Chargemaster IMR 8208 ammo placed me 6th in last year's Euros. My 0.02 accurate team ammo didn't work well because of a change in batch of IMR4895. Make of that what you will...

[ovenpaa]

We were talking to a company that reloads ammunition last year, they run a bank of four RCBS Chargemasters for speed and check the throws on a calibrated scientific scale. The woman doing the powder throwing told Christel the CM's never over threw and would typically throw under by 0.2 grains worst case. As much as I like beam scales and would dearly like to own one of the TargetMaster systems and a tuned scale I would never have the time to use it, much preferring to leave the throwing to Christel who can churn filled cases out at an impressive rate.

She has muttered about running a pair of CM's for a while now and no doubt it will happen later this year when we upgrade our reloading process.

For fine spherical/ball powder I am yet to see anything beat our Harrell Precision Premium for speed and accuracy.

[TattooedGun]

Currently I measure to the kernel with extruded powder, there's about 5 kernels to each 1/10th grain with N560. So I throw the charge, trickle it to as close as I can get and then use tweezers to get it to the centre of the black line each time. My balance beam is connected to a webcam, so I can see quite accurately how it moves with each kernel. I don't find this difficult or time consuming, it's just part of my quest to be as accurate as possible, although I accept others wouldn't go as far.

Have you seen this? I suspect this man cares about 1/10th grain.

I'm sure he does! but does he worry about the 0.02gr increment inaccuracies that 1/50th would give as you were implying earlier, or does he leave it at 1/10th grain accuracy and concentrate his time on being at the range and practice shooting it...

I don't know, which is why I'm asking. I'd be intrigued to know which of those top F-class shots have laboratories where they hone their ammunition, and those who get it somewhere close and rely on skill to keep them at the top of their game.

Rather interestingly, he doesn't go into the specifics of the powder charges in any of his correspondence on other forums but talks at length about the neck tension of the brass. Even more interestingly the brass he shot that group pictured (through his .300 HULK - necked down .338 to .308) was on it's 58th outting. 58! Incredible.

At "approx 85 grains of powder", as is recorded for his load, would someone really be concerned with 0.02 grain increments which would be 0.0235% of the total powder volume in the case over 0.117% discrepancy?

Would a discrepancy of powder that is just over 1 tenth of a percent make any substantial influence of point of impact in the real world compared to that which is within almost 2 100ths of a percent @ 1000yards.

Does anyone care to see if a ballistic calculator (quickload for example) could theoretically calculate the distance in elevation spread between a powder charge of 84.98 grains and 85.02 (0.02 grain accuracy) vs the spread of 84.9gr and 85.1 grains (1/10th grain accuracy) for this cartridge. I'm sure there will be *some* but realistically, how much are we talking with all other aspects of reloading being equal?

EDIT - 85 grains instead of 82.

[HALODIN]

I don't think QuickLOAD will be able to tell you anything meaningful as there are too many variables that haven't be disclosed, COAL - cartridge length - case capacity etc... However on a random test, increasing a .338 round from 85 grains --> 85.02 grains would create an additional 56 psi (84,203 --> 84,259) by my calculations.

I read somewhere that he anneals his cases after every outing, so clearly he's a man of detail, but I guess we'll never know for certain.

[TattooedGun]

I don't think QuickLOAD will be able to tell you anything meaningful as there are too many variables that haven't be disclosed, COAL - cartridge length - case capacity etc...

I read somewhere that he anneals his cases after every outing, so clearly he's a man of detail, but I guess we'll never know for certain.

I read every 3 outings he anneals. But he could have been talking about his tactical rig as opposed to his long range rig. I read a lot of different posts from him before I went out earlier...

Certainly a stickler for detail, but how much is too much.

The fact his cases have been used 58 times and he has a 1000 yard range IN his back yard certainly suggest he shoots a lot. does that experience translate more to the scores than 0.02 vs 0.1 grain powder difference...

I only dream to shoot half that much but anything better than the 10th grain powder throws I'm using would be wasted time and energy because I can't read wind enough to be accurate enough to be anything like fulfilling to the equipment. That's not to say that those with the experience can't get use out of that much increase in accuracy of powder throws.

Hypothetical question. Do you think misjudging the wind by 0.5mph over that distance would be more than or equal to the amount of difference between 0.1 grain of powder difference in his hypothetical load.

0.5mph at 90degrees would place your shot approximately 2.5" from point of aim.

It's all hypothetical really, because in the UK most of us don't have the luxury of a 1000 yard range in our back garden so the time spent getting the accuracy out of the ammunition is generally the only thing we can do between range visits. But there comes a point where you have to wonder if you're actually gaining anything out of the experience other than a mental advantage of knowing that your ammunition is bowl more accurately filled than over someone filling to 1/10th.

If only for my curiosity I'd be interested to see the difference in fps between ammunition with those kind of powder load variance and see what kind of real world difference one may be able to expect from being that anal about it, verses, for example wind drift miscalculations which only really come with experience.