Use of electronic targetry on MOD ranges now banned

[John MH]

Just wondering if the NRA has any updates on this yet.

Leave it to the NRA I'm sure when there is something other than rumour or scuttlebutt they'll provide the information.

Just a point as well, why on earth would the MoD involve or consult with the NRA in the decision making, procurement process and implementation programme for a targetry system designed for military use to fulfil a military requirement?

[dromia]

Leave it to the NRA I'm sure when there is something other than rumour or scuttlebutt they'll provide the information.

Just a point as well, why on earth would the MoD involve or consult with the NRA in the decision making, procurement process and implementation programme for a targetry system designed for military use to fulfil a military requirement?

We left it to the NRA and they have been found wanting in this respect and until they get to grips with it and communicate with clubs and members on the subject then speculation will abound.

I cannot answer for the MoD thinking and whys but there have been meetings where the lack of presence of the NRA was noted as they were expected to attend as the "national" body.

The NRA will be able to answer better for its diary appointments so I suggest you ask them what meetings they have missed.

[John MH]

You clearly have a very one sided view of the NRA.

What meetings did they miss and were they even invited?

It appears that Chinese whispers abound over who went to what meeting and said nothing or wasn't savvy enough to keep the masses of civilian shooters appraised and up to date on MoD Targetry systems development and programmes.

How MoD ranges are run, refurbished and used by the military for whom they are provided has absolutely nothing to to with the NRA.

Civilian use of MoD Ranges is a 'side' benefit that we should be grateful exists, it could easily disappear if the amount of effort to maintain it exceeds the benefits while remembering there are actually no benefits for the MoD.

[dromia]

Whatever John, however the nub is that we need the NRA to sort this out and a timescale and plan would be useful to share.

By your own words we need to go through the NRA to do this properly so it would just be good communication if the NRA would lets us know what they are doing, going to do and how long it will take them to get a a handle on all this obfuscation, red herrings, aunt Sally's, confusion and get it sorted.

[John MH]

An update would be nice but IWR has only been on this for one week and is probably at the behest of the MoD's speed in replying to this clearly high priority issue for them.

[karen]

NRA are discussing a great many things with MoD at just about every level. There is a lot of progress. I will not discuss the content of incomplete negotiations on an open forum.

I am sure as soon as there is any news that someone will post it on the NRA website and elsewhere but I doubt if anyone knows when there will be anything to report yet.

love

Karen

[Mail2pete]

It's a pity that everyone is not a member if a National Shooting Body. If they were perhaps the National Shooting Body would have the resources to react to situations like this straight away. The NRA do a good job with the resources they have.


Sent from my boing using "An application"

[Sim G]

Civilian use of MoD Ranges is a 'side' benefit that we should be grateful exists, it could easily disappear if the amount of effort to maintain it exceeds the benefits while remembering there are actually no benefits for the MoD.

I disagree. The "civilian" use of military ranges provides benefits to the MoD that have been long since recognised.

In the evidence presented to the Cullen Enquiry by Gen. Sir Peter Duffell, Head of British Army Training & Doctrine, he went to great lengths to illustrate and support the civilian use of arms as it had had a direct impact on the effectiveness of the British military and their skill at arms. Handgun skills developed by the UKPSA were directly influencing Special Forces. Extreme range civilian marksmanship and ammunition development had a particular niche role in the military, amongst others.

Likewise, the finest military sniper rifle in the world, the L96, is a soldier proofed, civilian target rifle. And I know that the CO of CPTA specifically asked the civilian rifle clubs to develop "youth sections" in order to foster marksmanship amongst the younger generation which was now found to be lacking in new recruits.

[John MH]

Handgun skills developed by the UKPSA were directly influencing Special Forces.

That made me laugh this morning.

The formation of the NRA and what it used to do and the reason why there is a ARA, RNRMRA and RAFSAA are all well known. Unfortunately in the real modern world those mean nothing to the bean counters in the MoD.

The majority of the generation of recruits and and more importantly officers that have joined since the 90s are post Hungerford and now post Dunblane and have been brainwashed by the media that civilian use of firearms is bad; that view will only get stronger as the older guard retire and that is where the real problem lies in a world that is driven by cost cutting with no one in a position of authority seeing the wider view. Sad fact but true.

[Sim G]

That made me laugh this morning.

Which implies you think the concept laughable? Then you'd be wrong.

The practice of cross pollination of skills between civilian and military is well documented. But in regard to this specific aspect, Gen Duffell has written a number of papers extolling such. Evidence to that regard was presented to Cullen, which was probably the first time that such things had been audited. It is also detailed in the book "Guns & Violence the debate before Lord Cullen" compiled by Richard Munday and Jan Stevenson. In this is detailed a letter that Gen Duffell wrote to J A de Havilland, the then Chairman of the NRA, on the 15.2.94, two years before Dunblane, of the work of the NPA and UKPSA in the development of "advanced combat shooting" for the SF, by these civilian associations. (p245)

Likewise, it is well documented that former SAS member Rev Frank Collins spent an awful lot of time both here and in the US, training with civilians in IPSC practical pistol, for the formulation of SF pistol craft.

Not as laughable as you may have thought...

The bean counters in the MoD really could do with embracing civilian rifle clubs, especially now because of the defence cuts. With the plan of around a third of our military to be formed with reservists, how else could their effectiveness be maintained with next to little outlay from the MoD? By encouraging reservists to join clubs and compete in shooting at their own expense! It's actually a no-brainer...... There is plenty of worth in promoting this.