Swedish Mauser loading problems

[Dougan]

I've been having various problems with the loads I've been making for my Swedish Mauser (29.1 inch barrel) - please bear with me, as I'd like to give all the details, so that the experts on here have all the info...

I started (months ago) with - Winchester 6.5 x 55 new cases (run through an FL die), CCI large rifle primers, 140 gn SMKs, and Vhit N150 powder.

The Vhit manual gives a starting load for the bullet of 36.3 (OAL 3.110) - so I loaded 3 different weights of powder (36.8, 37.1, 37.4) at 2 different OALs (as I thought 3.110 seemed a bit 'shallow' I used 3.085 and 3.050) - there was a lot of sooting on the cases, apart from the higher powder and deeper seated ones, but they had very slight ejector marks.

So next chance to test, I tried 20 rounds: all new lapua brass (run through an FL die), same primers and bullets, and all 37.0 gn of powder - but this time used the recommended OAL of 3.110 - Again there was various degrees of sooting, some had slight ejector marks, and there were some odd firing pin strikes including 2 burst primers!

Here's 4 of the cases all with slight ejector marks (to the front) and the 2 on the right with burst primers:

So at this point I took the rifle to Fultons to get the head space and bolt checked - the head space was fine, but the inside of the bolt needed some attention; the spring was changed and the firing pin profile slightly altered - it was tested with 10 PPU factory rounds, and all was fine.

So next chance to test, I made 4 rounds the same as the last test, 4 with the same load etc, but using the PPU factory one-fired brass, neck sized only, and some PPU factory for comparison - the pin strike problems was sorted ( ) and no problems with the PPU, and the PPU reloads had no sooting, but again the new-brass loads had sooting and very slight ejector marks.

PPU - top row factory - bottom row ppu reloads:

New brass loads:

I pulled a PPU - the bullet was very well seated, so I don't think I've got any problems with seating (?) - but I burned the powder, side by side with the same amount of Vhit 150...and the Vhit was definitely faster...so should I try N160..?


The only thing I can think of, is that the charge is actually too low (though the recoil seems the same as the factory) to seal the case to the chamber (thus the sooting), and so the pressure is coming back onto the face of the bolt (causing the marks) - but as ejector marks can be a sign of pressure, I'm obviously reluctant to up the load any further...

...but then my only other option is to keep using the once-fired PPU brass (which appears to have expanded and sealed nicely), and reduce the load...but then I will be going below the recommended minimum....

One thing I don't seem to have to worry about is accuracy, as everything seemed pretty good - but ideally, I would have a nice light load (as I only want to shoot reloads at 200), with no sooting, and most importantly safe for me and the rifle...

...Any help achieing this would be massively appreciated :cheers:

[idge]

I think switching to a powder like n160 would certainly help , its the powder I used to use when I had a Swedish mauser and had great results and no issues. Im sure it might help your sooting issues .

[dromia]

What is the rifles throat like?

Have you chronographed the loads and checked case head expansion against the factory rounds?

What is the bullet retention like? What is the sized inside case head diameter in relation to the actual bullet diameter?

I'd try necksizing the fire formed cases with a Lee collet die. Or partial F/L resizing with the F/L sizing die so that the cases are a very slight crush fit in the chamber.

On the sooting brass I'd try annealing the cases with those loads, also flash hole deburring especially on the Winchester brass, Lapua brass doesn't need it. Winchester brass is up there with my least favourite brass Jamison

N165 is my powder of choice for the Swede along with N160 depending on rifle, condom bullets.

The Swede can be finicky in the military chambers and throats, being such a thoroughbred round. Good case to chamber fit is important especially with slow burning powders. If possible bullet seating onto the lands can help as well.

A quick fix can be the Lee rifle crimp die but I am not a fan of crimping rifle rounds and although the Lee crimp die does work it is brutal on case mouths and I'm not convinced that it doesn't effect the bullets performance especially at the longer ranges.

Sorry to proselytise and to be repeating myself but you really need to know your chamber/throat/bore/groove dimensions. Impact slug that rifle its not just for cast boolits, condoms need to fit too and you can't do that until you know what you are fitting them too!!

[Dougan]

What is the rifles throat like?

Have you chronographed the loads and checked case head expansion against the factory rounds?

What is the bullet retention like? What is the sized inside case head diameter in relation to the actual bullet diameter?

I'd try necksizing the fire formed cases with a Lee collet die. Or partial F/L resizing with the F/L sizing die so that the cases are a very slight crush fit in the chamber.

On the sooting brass I'd try annealing the cases with those loads, also flash hole deburring especially on the Winchester brass, Lapua brass doesn't need it. Winchester brass is up there with my least favourite brass Jamison

N165 is my powder of choice for the Swede along with N160 depending on rifle, condom bullets.

The Swede can be finicky in the military chambers and throats, being such a thoroughbred round. Good case to chamber fit is important especially with slow burning powders. If possible bullet seating onto the lands can help as well.

A quick fix can be the Lee rifle crimp die but I am not a fan of crimping rifle rounds and although the Lee crimp die does work it is brutal on case mouths and I'm not convinced that it doesn't effect the bullets performance especially at the longer ranges.

Sorry to proselytise and to be repeating myself but you really need to know your chamber/throat/bore/groove dimensions. Impact slug that rifle its not just for cast boolits, condoms need to fit too and you can't do that until you know what you are fitting them too!!

Hi Dromia, thanks for your advice,

The throat looks fine - but then I'm really not sure what I'm looking for...Fultons said there were no problems with the head space, chamber or throat....

I'm not using the Winchester brass anymore (just got 50 to get me started) - I only used 30, and rejected 4 on the way due to deformities on the necks; in general it didn't appear very well made - so am only now (for new brass) using the Lapua cases; which appear to be very well made, and annealed already (from the color of the necks and shoulders (?))

After sizing, (Redding dies) the inside of the Lapua necks was 0.262, and the SMKs are bang on 0.264 - compared to the PPU cases at 0.263, and PPU bullets at 0.263 - the neck tension on the loads feels good; they aren't easy to pull with an inertial hammer...though I still think that a COL of 3.110 isn't deep enough (?) - The PPU factory was much harder to pull, which is, as you suggest, due to a crimp....

It would be impossible to get close to the lands - I checked with my SHED OAL Gauge...and an SMK will have fully cleared the neck, before it reaches the lands.

When I started loading form the SMLE, case choice was a 'no brainer', as I already had nearly 500 once-fired (in the rifle) PPU, which after neck-sizing only, perform perfectly with a light load - after fire forming the shoulders are rounded and shifted slightly forward, which (I think?) is why they fit, and shoot so well...

...now this appears to be the same with the Mauser chamber - the factory ammo has a slightly changed shape (which is probably why they were the only ones to not soot at all) - and so I will now continue to experiment only using these case...my father has been plinking with the Mauser while I've been shooting TR; so am getting a supply of once fired PPU....

However it would still be good to use new brass, which isn't showing any signs of expansion (neck, shoulder or case head) after firing - what I really can't understand is why I'm getting ejector marks with a load that is only 0.7 gn over minimum ???

I would (and will) like to try N160, after what yourself and Idge have said...annoying though, as I've just got a tub of N150 :roll:

[dromia]

One reason why you are getting marks could be poor case fit, the Swede headspaces on the shoulder.

You've had your rifles chamber checked for headspace but that doesn't mean that f/l sized or new cases still aren't a bit sloppy in the chamber. Your chamber could be at the maximum end of acceptable tolerance and the cases at the minimum, especially with Redding dies and new brass.

That is why I have suggested Lee Collet neck sizing and/or partial F/L resizing to get good case fit.

Until you know the actual dimensions of your rifles chamber/throat/bore/ groove you are just guessing and trying in the hope that you get the right sizes.

Your throat does indeed seem generous if you cannot get it out to the lands, I have swedes that you can reach easily and others like your that it is a no no, just normal throat wear at different stages. These rifles have been around for a long time.

If you don't want to do a chamber/throat/bore/groove slug then neck sizing with the Lee and/or partial F/L resizing would be the way to go before changing powders.

[Dougan]

One reason why you are getting marks could be poor case fit, the Swede headspaces on the shoulder.

You've had your rifles chamber checked for headspace but that doesn't mean that f/l sized or new cases still aren't a bit sloppy in the chamber. Your chamber could be at the maximum end of acceptable tolerance and the cases at the minimum, especially with Redding dies and new brass.

That is why I have suggested Lee Collet neck sizing and/or partial F/L resizing to get good case fit.

Until you know the actual dimensions of your rifles chamber/throat/bore/ groove you are just guessing and trying in the hope that you get the right sizes.

Your throat does indeed seem generous if you cannot get it out to the lands, I have swedes that you can reach easily and others like your that it is a no no, just normal throat wear at different stages. These rifles have been around for a long time.

If you don't want to do a chamber/throat/bore/groove slug then neck sizing with the Lee and/or partial F/L resizing would be the way to go before changing powders.

I started with a Lee a collet die, but didn't like the fact that the consistency of successive batches relied on my ability (I ended up with one batch where you could pull the bullets out by hand ) - I switched to the Redding dies, as at least I know the neck tension (expander ball) will be ok for running rounds through the mag...which is important for the future...

I'll be making some more next weekend; so will try to get some more measurements/understanding of the fit of the new brass in the chamber...and try what you say about partial F/L sizing...

What about with the once-fired PPU; which seem to have fire formed to a better fit - I was thinking about trying those again, but with a reduce load (maybe 35 - 36 gn) and slightly deeper seating.....In the Vhit manual the minimum load for 140 SMKs is 36.3 of 150, but it also gives a minimum of 33.5 gn for 139 Scenars....so can I assume that it would be safe to reduce the load, from a case to powder volume perspective..?

[dromia]

Shame that the lee collets didn't work for you as I find them to be the best neck sizing dies out there bar none for consistency and concentricity and the ability to control internal and external case diameters. They do need fettling however and you do need to understand and learn how to set them up properly.

I remove expander balls from all my dies regardless of make as I think they are the worst things around for destroying case necks.

Definitely use your best fitting brass but you should get all your brass to fit, that is where annealing can be your friend for fireforming, you will also need to anneal more often if you use expander balls.

You really need to chrono your loads, I suspect that they are not over the top and any case markings are due to fit, however without more data about your rounds we are guessing a lot.

QL gives a case fill of 77% with 33.5 gns of N150, 139 Lapua Scenar and an oal of 2.979". Sierra MKs are given with a case fill of 76% same load and oal. So both should be good to go.

Look out for sooting with the reduced loads.

What are you hoping for with the reduced load?

[Dougan]

Shame that the lee collets didn't work for you as I find them to be the best neck sizing dies out there bar none for consistency and concentricity and the ability to control internal and external case diameters. They do need fettling however and you do need to understand and learn how to set them up properly.

I remove expander balls from all my dies regardless of make as I think they are the worst things around for destroying case necks.

Definitely use your best fitting brass but you should get all your brass to fit, that is where annealing can be your friend for fireforming, you will also need to anneal more often if you use expander balls.

You really need to chrono your loads, I suspect that they are not over the top and any case markings are due to fit, however without more data about your rounds we are guessing a lot.

QL gives a case fill of 77% with 33.5 gns of N150, 139 Lapua Scenar and an oal of 2.979". Sierra MKs are given with a case fill of 76% same load and oal. So both should be good to go.

Look out for sooting with the reduced loads.

What are you hoping for with the reduced load?

I really appreciate you taking the time on this one Adam...and I really hope you're coming to the Trafalgar...as, at this rate, you won't need to buy a single drink :cheers:

Your responses are making me more confident about continuing to experiment - can I/should I use the marked cases again?

I remember you saying about taking the expander ball out before, so did try it - unfortunately the 'fixed' dies give too much tension, and you can see a visible bulge when seating the bullet...the Lee dies would be better for this.

Chronographing would be great, but I don't have one, and even if I did, it would be hard to fit in using it around the club shoots.

Why a reduced load?: I suppose really it's because I'm so happy with my .303 loads (39.0 gn of N140 and a 174 FMJ) - they are very accurate at 200 yards, and feel softer than the factory...I've had no issues with them, and feel I can shoot them all day, even rapid and snaps...

It's all a bit frustrating really, as my recent interest in classics, and reloading for them has come at a bad time - I've got 5 weeks left of a degree I've been doing for 6 years (am working on an assignment now, between posts), so with a final project still to do, don't really have the time for much fiddling and testing before the Trafalgar...

The other thing is that I don't know if I'll be in the UK next year (may have to go abroad again) - if I am, then I would have more time (and hopefully money), so it would be worth getting a chrono, trying annealing, and even having a dabble with cast boolits - But if I'm not here it won't - this also leads to another problem...in that I share several rifles with my dad...he hasn't been that involved with the loading side of things (quite busy caring for my mum), so if I do go away, I need to be able to leave him with some easy and safe 'recipes' that he can use himself...which is part of the reason I didn't want to persist with the Lee collet dies - he's got the .357s down to a tea, and I'm sure he'll have no problems with the .303s...but if I can't sort an easy (read not fiddly or time consuming) load and components for him to use in the Mauser, then he'll just have to use factory in it...which is fine if it comes to that...

[dromia]

Bulged necks are not a problem so long as the bullets are concentric, will chamber and don't deform when seated (the target will tell you whether this has happened or not), it is very common on straight walled pistol cases for example and it never worries me on my ammunition. It also gives good bullet retention.

I use my "M" dies to expand the case mouth for bullet seating when sizing cases without those god awful neck expanders.

For the condom bullets that you are using Lee make a simple multi calibre neck expander that will flare the case mouth adequately for condom bullets, especially boattails.

Regarding loads I always let the target tell me which is best, the Swede isn't a heavy recoiling rifle anyway. I'd work up loads from 33.5 (go no lower) to 37.5
in 1/2 gn increments and see which groups best. Generally speaking my most accurate loads are usually a little below maximum.

If recoil is still too much then I'd go for a lighter bullet which to be honest for 200 yrds could work very well. Might be worth trying the 120 gn SMK, check the data for starting loads.

[hans]

Hello Dougan,
I had some soothing on new 6.5x55 PPU amunition.
Found out that the lenght from shoulder to base was different in lenght according to the
Redding instant indicator.
The soothed cases where all to short some more than .012" I believe that was a bad lot.
The most cases of this brand are great to compete with after some segregation and preperation.
Another point of atention is that the width of the base/head is verry important.
Before i reload i segregate the cases by taking a number 3 Rcbs shellholder and see if the case fits inhere,
So not than it is for the number 2 shellholder taken the thinner cases out the batch for practice and the thicker
ones for competing.
In all honesty i don't see changing powders would solve the soothing problem wile the cases are not uniform
in lenght ?.

With friendly regards.
Hans.