Liability

[thesquiff]

So I've been investing in some reloading kit for 308 WIN and come the autumn hope to have all the necessary kit and spent a good amount of time learning how to use it safely and consistently.

I'd certainly want to have proved my ability for a good year or two before thinking about giving any ammo to others, however I have the following questions:

(i) Is it legal to give reloaded rounds to club members and be reimbursed for the material cost (i.e. no profit)? How would I stand insurance wise if there was an accident using one of the rounds. I'm guessing NRA member insurance wouldn't cover it?

(ii) What about if club members are all involved in the manufacturing process? Would that have any impact on my first question?

[saddler]

(i) To SELL loaded ammunition you need a CIP Licence..they don't stipulate if you are selling at a loss or a profit or just breaking even

Passing ammo you have made yourself to other club members is one big grey area - as IF something goes wrong = YOU are part of the equation that will come under massive scrutiny & be potentially liable

(ii) IF the other members carried out ALL the steps involving primers, powder & bullets you MAY possibly be ok = i.e. you de-prime the fired case for them, nothing more

...MY 0.02c worth - leave it well alone & only make ammo for your own use

[thesquiff]

So I can see two scenarios for a "reloading party".

(i) I provide the equipment only - others can bring their own powder and bullets but load their own using my equipment. I guess I could charge a small equipment hire fee to help offset the initial high outlay of buying all the stuff.

(ii) I provide the equipment, powder and bullets and others buy the materials off me and then use them to load their own to their own recipe but using my equipment.

Are there any licenses required to sell powder or bullets?

[Dave 101]

Personaly I wouldnt go down this road for several reasons , my safety being top priority .
Two or three guys getting together leads to loss of concentration for one reason or another which can lead mistakes being made .
To reload a batch of ammo for myself I want good quality control for best results , if you got different people setting up for what they want things are going to get muddled in the process leading to mistakes being made , its difficult enough getting all set for yourself and keeping it that way . I thiink if your mates want to reload then they should invest in their own equipment .
What happens when your equipment begins to get worn out or damaged , what happens if something went wrong then they blamed your equipment for the mistake therefore its your responsibility in their eyes for you to pay for the damage done .
Nope , I think its to much of a slippery pole .

Dave

[Geordie bloke]

Keep it simple. Reload for yourself. Most shooters who have experience will reload for themselves anyway and will never trust someone else reloading for them, unless it is a company who sells reloads such as HPS.
Like a previous comment, do not load as a group (unless it is a one to one with an experienced reloader tutoring a novice) as it can lead to distractions and errors can be made. If you want to join a group, then join the Womens Institute and make jam or something.
Good shooting.

[Apphelia]

You might also want to take a look at this link: http://www.gunproof.com/Proofing/proofing.html:

Although the same rules do not apply to home loaders, given that their products cannot be legally sold, in the interests of safety the Proof House affords those parties opportunity to batch test their ammunition to ensure that the associated breech pressures and velocities are within acceptable standards. By so doing it removes the potential for weapons being damaged, thereby injuring the user or, even worse, innocent bystanders. Previous tests of this nature in the past have indicated the poor standards adopted by such parties and the lack of uniformity between rounds of ammunition.

[my emphasis]

<Gulp>

[phaedra1106]

I have a fellow club member who has loaded a batch each of .44 and .308 using my equipment, he provided all the components and did all the work under my direct one to one supervision.

He's buying his own reloading equipment and on delivery I'll oversee and check it's setup and correct operation. After this he'll load several batches of ammo under supervision until we're both happy he's competent to proceed on his own.

This is how I was taught and I believe it's a lot better and safer than him relying on sometimes ambiguous at best manufacturers instructions. As to "reloading parties" I've been to a couple and they can be handy if a someone else has different or better equipment as you can see it operate and try beforeuying it yourself. It's also a good way to see and learn new skills like casting bullets or making lead shot etc. as not everyone has the equipment to do it.

Of course there are risks if you don't pay full attention to what you're doing and with ammunition those risks can be fatal. As always you alone are responsible for what you put in your own rifle or pistol, giving your home loaded ammo to others to use is not something I'd be happy doing as I have no idea of the condition or capabilities of their firearms. If I load a batch of sub-sonic .308 or "hot" .44 magnum I'll happily let someone else try it but only in my rifle that I've previously shot it with and know it shoots it safely.

[saddler]

Sounds like you are 100% committed to pursuing your ideas as a financial exercise

Set up as an RFD/dealer (with RCA/POMSTER) = make money from selling components

Invest several £thousand setting up as a CIP registered ammunition manufacturer = sell your own ammo

Hire out die sets and presses & the like; but the returns will be small & as has been said most shooters already own their own.

[thesquiff]

Sounds like you are 100% committed to pursuing your ideas as a financial exercise

No, no, not at all. Merely as a way to try and help out fellow club members who are being priced out and be able to get a days club shooting at reasonable cost. I can see the sport dying a rapid death otherwise. I have no enthusiasm whatsoever for becoming an ammunition tycoon.

There are some good points made on here about distractions and the danger of that - something I hadn't considered. I think any sharing of equipment should therefore be just that - a sharing of equipment - rather than a group loading exercise. Leave one guy alone to get on with it rather than having others around.

While I think some basic quality control (e.g. weighing each round against a control) should help, obviously it should be safety first, and so I think I'll be down playing any thoughts on loading for or with others - certainly until I can consider myself experienced in the subject - which will be a good few years off.

Thanks for all your thoughts.

[phaedra1106]

You'll be pleasantly surprised at how much there is to learn

I've been loading since 1978, it's only in the last month or so that I've looked into things like shoulder bumping and chamber tollerance and those were only because I'd not previously had a problem with such things. I know of at least three shooters at my club that would like to reload and save money on club/retail ammunition prices but in most cases while the actual component cost per round is cheaper it's usually offset by the cost of the equipment needed to produce it. Most people I know who reload do it because they simply enjoy it, it's also a great way to learn what can be achieved with the right load for their rifles or pistols.

In one respect I've been very lucky in that I've managed to get the majority of my reloading equipment, cases and bullets etc. from the USA at greatly reduced prices, Lapua .308 cases at £40/100, Nosler 168gr Custom Competion bullets for the .308s were a bargain at £274 for 2000 compared to prices here. This enables me to produce very good ammunition at a reasonable price, around £34/100 for the .308 and £14/100 for the .44 (after buying cases).