Roadside Firearm checks by the Police

[Dangermouse]

Ovenpaa's hypothetical question has reminded me of a discussion that I had at the weekend where by one or more experienced shooter was under the impression that a Police Officer could not examine your firearms at the road side.
Individual counties may have certain Standard Operating Procedures which may suggest that inspections are carried out in a "out of public" area, but I am not aware of any and it would make a mockery of the original reason that the Officer had for asking to inspect the firearm in the first place - i.e. letting someone who he suspects may be guilty of a firearms offence drive with said firearms to a Police station, would clearly be a daft position to be in.

Below are the relevant acts, Sec 47 and 48 Firearms act 1968
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27

47 Powers of constables to stop and search.E+W+S.(1)A constable may require any person whom he has reasonable cause to suspect—.
(a)of having a firearm, with or without ammunition, with him in a public place; or.
(b)to be committing or about to commit, elsewhere than in a public place, an offence relevant for the purposes of this section,.
to hand over the firearm or any ammunition for examination by the constable.
(2)It is an offence for a person having a firearm or ammunition with him to fail to hand it over when required to do so by a constable under subsection (1) of this section..
(3)If a constable has reasonable cause to suspect a person of having a firearm with him in a public place, or to be committing or about to commit, elsewhere than in a public place, an offence relevant for the purposes of this section, the constable may search that person and may detain him for the purpose of doing so..
(4)If a constable has reasonable cause to suspect that there is a firearm in a vehicle in a public place, or that a vehicle is being or is about to be used in connection with the commission of an offence relevant for the purposes of this section elsewhere than in a public place, he may search the vehicle and for that purpose require the person driving or in control of it to stop it..
(5)For the purpose of exercising the powers conferred by this section a constable may enter any place..
(6)The offences relevant for the purpose of this section are those under sections 18(1) and (2) and 20 of this Act..

48 Production of certificates.E+W+S.(1)A constable may demand, from any person whom he believes to be in possession of a firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or of a shot gun, the production of his firearm certificate or, as the case may be, his shot gun certificate..
[F138(1A)Where a person upon whom a demand has been made by a constable under subsection (1) above and whom the constable believes to be in possession of a firearm fails—.
(a)to produce a firearm certificate or, as the case may be, a shot gun certificate;.
(b)to show that he is a person who, by reason of his place of residence or any other circumstances, is not entitled to be issued with a document identifying that firearm under any of the provisions which in the other member States correspond to the provisions of this Act for the issue of European firearms passes; or.
(c)to show that he is in possession of the firearm exclusively in connection with the carrying on of activities in respect of which, he or the person on whose behalf he has possession of the firearm, is recognised, for the purposes of the law of another member State relating to firearms, as a collector of firearms or a body concerned in the cultural or historical aspects of weapons,.
the constable may demand from that person the production of a document which has been issued to that person in another member State under any such corresponding provisions, identifies that firearm as a firearm to which it relates and is for the time being valid.]
(2)If a person upon whom a demand is made under this section fails to produce the certificate [F139or document] or to permit the constable to read it, or to show that he is entitled by virtue of this Act to have the firearm, ammunition or shot gun in his possession without holding a certificate, the constable may seize and detain the firearm, ammunition or shot gun and may require the person to declare to him immediately his name and address..
(3)If under this section a person is required to declare to a consta ble his name and address, it is an offence for him to refuse to declare it or to fail to give his true name and address..
[F140(4)It is an offence for a person who is in possession of a firearm to fail to comply with a demand under subsection (1A) above.].

[Robin128]

Always carry your FAC/SGC in your vehicle if you have a gun and /or ammo with you.

[Dangermouse]

Funnily enough I have just done a 500 mile round trip without mine

As I had to send it to Surrey FET within 48 hours of selling the Marlin, they still had it at the weekend, but it has arrived back this morning (within 7 days) along with variations for another Sec1 Shotgun and a .308/7.62.

I did take my expired FAC and was confident that I could remind anyone that the fact that I am still a FAC holder is recorded on the PNC - A sore point I agree,

DM

[ovenpaa]

Good post and worth adding as a sticky somewhere (Mods?)...Rob's put it in the Library.

Hopefully I will never have to find out... however the one scenario I have always wondered about is me driving to a meeting with Christel's rifle and a box of ammunition and getting stopped.

I can legally possess her rifle plus ammunition because it says I can on my FAC.

So there I am minding my own business at the traffic lights and get rear ended, not my fault, and as luck has it one witness is a police man cycling past who stops to make sure all parties are OK, yes we are but he then spots the rifle in the back as the boot has sprung up, and obviously asks what it is and do I have my FAC with me? Yes I do but the rifle in the boot is not listed directly so he radios in and they reply no worries, David is licensed to possess his wife's rifle and the number you have given us us for a 22Christel...

Thumbs up, everything is good, oh and can I have a quick look at the ammunition as I have not heard of this one he says....

Oops thinks me as I produce a box of ammo head stamped 6.5-47 Yes I know it is not the end of the world but it sure would be interesting

[Dangermouse]

Should you be rear ended in Brixton tonight and you end up getting your firearms inspected, I think you would be justified for suggesting that the location was possibly not the best and that you would happily comply with any reasonable request, but perhaps waving your firearms around, advertising their presence and your vulnerability, once the Police have left, may not be a wise thing to be doing.

My friend who knows a lot about the Police radio systems had to stop an Officer from confirming his address in the same message as he confirmed his firearms Certificate details, reminding the embarrassed Officer that the (old) system was not secure and that anyone could be listening.

DM

[tikkathreebarrels]

I'm surprised no-one's said this yet as this is such a knowledgeable forum. Not only shouldn't you ever leave the home with a firearm and without your FAC, you should actually take a photocopy - rather than the original - on which your address details have been blanked out. Old Bill can access those details via your FAC number and his talking collar if he needs to. Should the copy fall into wrong hands you're not giving out information about the location of stored firearms and ammunition.

[Sim G]

A bit of anecdotal evidence here and it may come as a surprise that your average bobby is not the panicing type when you are going about your lawful business, in possession of a firearm or shotgun....

My old area was semi rural. Regularly we would get called to reports of "man shooting in a field." This wouldn't involve a helicopter or teams of firearms officers, but generally an ordinary patrol. And, more often than not; "Yep, gentleman here shooting rabbits/pigeons/turnips (or whatever). He does not have his certificate with him, can you confirm that mr such and such of blah, blah, does hold one"

When confirmed; "Job's a good 'un, no offences, show me away..."

If you don't have your ticket (mine's always away for a variation or another) then carry ID. Preferably with your address. If you see a bobby walking across the field towards you, then please, beak the gun or open the bolt and if possible, lay the gun on the ground. Keep your hands where he can see them and smile. Even start with smething like, "Evening officer, you been called because I'm shooting?"

Don't take a bolshy attitude and give it, "Why are you on my land? I'm going about my lawful business, shouldn't you be out catching real criminals?"

You'd be surprised how many coppers are acually shooters themselves. You may get a conversation about your quarry and your guns..... I once (jokingly) told a bloke I was there to nick him because he used a Beretta DT10 for pigeon shooting and kept lying it down in puddles!

Don't worry about it. If you're legally in possession of said guns, legally where you are and behaving in a leal and responsible manner, the short contact with the police will be uneventful....... an possibly quite pleasant!

[ovenpaa]

If you don't have your ticket (mine's always away for a variation or another) then carry ID. Preferably with your address. If you see a bobby walking across the field towards you, then please, beak the gun or open the bolt and if possible, lay the gun on the ground. Keep your hands where he can see them and smile. Even start with smething like, "Evening officer, you been called because I'm shooting?"

Don't take a bolshy attitude and give it, "Why are you on my land? I'm going about my lawful business, shouldn't you be out catching real criminals?"

You'd be surprised how many coppers are acually shooters themselves. You may get a conversation about your quarry and your guns..... I once (jokingly) told a bloke I was there to nick him because he used a Beretta DT10 for pigeon shooting and kept lying it down in puddles!

Don't worry about it. If you're legally in possession of said guns, legally where you are and behaving in a leal and responsible manner, the short contact with the police will be uneventful....... an possibly quite pleasant!

Very wise words Sim :goodjob:

[Robin128]

I'm surprised no-one's said this yet as this is such a knowledgeable forum. Not only shouldn't you ever leave the home with a firearm and without your FAC, you should actually take a photocopy - rather than the original - on which your address details have been blanked out. Old Bill can access those details via your FAC number and his talking collar if he needs to. Should the copy fall into wrong hands you're not giving out information about the location of stored firearms and ammunition.

see para 20...http://www.full-bore.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=9

:roll:

[20series]

A couple of years ago I travelled up to Warrington to shoot a Small-bore match, I travelled with a mate and like a prat I left my FAC at home.

We were kipping at a Premier Inn and explained to the receptionist what we were doing, we asked her nicely to keep the bolts in her safe to which she readily aggreed. About 2 hours (and several drinks later) she came in the pub and asked us to return to the hotel as someone wanted a word. I walked into the reception still clutching my glass of a nice malt, to be greeted by one of the Local boys in blue, he looked at me and asked "Mr Collick, which rifle do you have with you, your .22 or .308?" (all I had at the time) so obviously the National Database works.

I did confess to him that I wasn't in possession of my FAC and explained I'd travelled with my oppo, he simply said have a pleasant evening and left.

It turns out the lass on the desk had been threatened with being shot by someone previously not wanting to pay their bill

Alan