advice please

[Convict_keeper]

I'm in the process of completing my FAC application and I'm looking into my first purchase

Rifle will be one of the following

AW, AE or AX (thanks to pe4king for pointing out the AX ) -(http://www.sportingservices.co.uk/accuracy.asp)

or

DOLPHIN’S F T/R RIFLE (http://www.dolphinguncompany.co.uk/pages/view/268)

depending on funds that is, now what I am really struggling with is what scope to get....... I will be shooting Target from 300yds - 1000yds (eventually)

I'm drawn to Schmidt Bender PM II 4-16 x50 34mm (http://www.scopesdirect.co.uk/proddetai ... bPMII41650) but dont have a clue if this would be up to the job :?

Soooo if you were looking at getting a scope to cover this..... what would you get?

any advice will be greatly appreciated

CK

[Ovenpaa]

I shoot a 4-16X PMII S&B, it is the single turn turret version with 1cm clicks (1/10 Milrad) I prefer the milrad to MOA and use it to 1200 yards quite often, it comes into it's own at 600-800m and works very well. You will need 28MOA 1 piece rings to suit and if it is anything like my AI/S&B you can zero at 100 with a click to spare and with elevation to 1200 with reaonably quick loads with 155/170 Lapua in .308.

I have recently used the 25X PMII two turn 'scope again in milrad. It was very good indeed and makes a difference from 1000 outwards.

Enjoy!

[Convict_keeper]

Thanks Ovenpaa, dont mean to be spanner or anything but what do you mean by

single turn turret version with 1cm clicks (1/10 Milrad)

I prefer the milrad to MOA

You will need 28MOA 1 piece rings to suit

CK

[Ovenpaa]

Well.... in simple terms elevation and windage changes are made on the 'scope using one of the turrets. As you wind them around you will feel a click, and each clicks raises the POI (Point of impact) by a set amount, the problem is the clicks equate to an angular measurement. This means 1 click at 1000 yards is 10X more than 1 click at 100 yards.

'Scopes are usually set in either MOA, or minute of arc which is approximately 1 inch at 100 yards, or 2 inches at 200 through to 12 inches at 1200 yards.

The scopes are graduated in fractions of an MOA, usually 1/4MOA (1/4" at 100 yards or 4" at 100 yards etc. Some are also graduated in 1/8MOA and some in 1/5MOA (Unusual)

So if you are shooting at 600 yards and are 12" low you need to raise the elevation 2MOA.

Simple innit?

Milrads to confuse things are different. S&B's Mildrad 'scopes are graduated in 1/10th Milrad clicks which is around 1/3" (.344 to be precise) which is 1cm/100m or 10cm/1000m. So if you are shooting 1metre low at 1000m you need to go up 10 clicks. Confused yet? :?

So what do you go for? I would say milrad anyday, and a 1 turn turret, this means 1 turn of the turret will take you up 130 clicks or 13 Milrad on an S&B 'scope. This means you can never be confused or loose yourself with a turret that turns multiple times.

I try to think in metric, with wind in m/sec and I know at 100m a target moving at medium walking pace needs 1 click of lead, fast=2 clicks pretty well regardless of distance for my rifle taking time of flight into account, sounds odd but I shoot 'Huns heads' (A cutout German head target) at 600m both stationary and moving with three second exposures followed by 5 seconds down. Then they come up again in a different place for 3 secs. I have to be very quick to get on the target and know how much lead to give it hence milrads suits me.

Hope that helps!

[Dangermouse]

CK,

I am sure that Ovenpaa will not mind me adding my bit which may appear to not to completely agree with him...

I would suggest that before spending the kind of money that you are looking at, that you do a lot of shooting first. Shooting other peoples rifles is the best way to get an idea of what works for you and what does not, but also gives you the chance to see what they actually feel like in the flesh, or if you have handled them in the shop, what they feel like in the shoulder.
Not all calibres feel the same, with some kicking a lot more than others.
An important part of this research is to try and work out what the priority will be for this Rifle. Should you decide that you want to have a good all round rifle for club work, doing a bit of Practical, bit of F class and whatever other fun shoots that are available, then I would highly recommend an AI.
On the other hand, should you get the F Class bug and decide that you want to be competitive at every distance - and they go out to 1200 yards (all be it only one a year - 1000 yards is the norm), then you will need a longer barrel and I would highly recommend one of Mik Mak's builds (Dolphin).

The added benefit of Mik's rifles are that they are normally built within a sensible time frame and you will have it in time for next season.
The down side of Mik's Rifle's are that they would be difficult to use in a Practical match, or any comp that requires multi positional shooting due to weight and length.

Weight is an important issue in deciding which scope to go for. Should you be a club shooter then you may find that there are no rules or that they are very lax about the weight of your rifle.
F Class has weight restrictions as do other competitions, and you can find that the choice of your scope may be limited to how much weight you have left over after the rifle is built.
I believe that this is a big part of the reason why Sightron scopes are so popular, they are lighter than some but still give very good performance.
Certainly the big S&B's, outstanding scopes that they are, are too heavy for many a competition rifle.

You may find that you need to weigh your completed rifle, bi pod as well, before you chose a scope.

Good luck with what ever you chose,

DM

[Convict_keeper]

Guys thanks for all your coments

My head is starting to hurt now :shock:

I know it will be one of those Rifles as its the way I want to go, its the scope thats doing me head in, the more I look the more I'm confused but I cant stop looking. Now have a list of 6 :shock:

May wait till I get the rifle then go and have a look at scopes

CK

[Ovenpaa]

Scope rings.

AI's are fitted with a bonded and screwed rail that you attach the 'scope to. The rail is parallel to the bore and as bullets drop the further they get from the barrel you need to tilt the 'scope. AI supply one peice rings' this means two rings with a common base that bolts to the rail. AI rings come with different angles of elevation, for .308 you need 28MOA (minutes of arc) this means when the 'scope is looking at the target the barrel is facing upwards very slightly.

An AI+S&B+28MOA gets you a 100 yard or metre zero and allows you to use all of the elevation clicks available.

I know I keep prattling on about milrads, if you go down this path you will be on your own as very few people use them, preferring to use MOA. The exception being the European and UK Military. The good news is if you get your hands on any European sniper system you will feel perfectly at home. Handy come the revolution

Kick the trend, be different! I can talk you through milrads/1cm klicks and it is so easy to get on with, also once used to the system the reticle will allow you to accurately range distances. (I also use a Leica laser range finder as I am lazy these days)

BTW have you seen the phrase first focal plane and second focal plane? Second focal plane (SFP) means the reticle stays the same size as you zoom in and out, it also means you have to be at a fixed magnification to range distances. First focal plane (FFP) you can range at any magnification but the reticle gets smaller as you zoom out.

I use FFP so yes the reticle looks smaller as I zoom out but I can always accurately determine the distance to target.

[Convict_keeper]

Scope rings.

AI's are fitted with a bonded and screwed rail that you attach the 'scope to. The rail is parallel to the bore and as bullets drop the further they get from the barrel you need to tilt the 'scope. AI supply one peice rings' this means two rings with a common base that bolts to the rail. AI rings come with different angles of elevation, for .308 you need 28MOA (minutes of arc) this means when the 'scope is looking at the target the barrel is facing upwards very slightly.

An AI+S&B+28MOA gets you a 100 yard or metre zero and allows you to use all of the elevation clicks available.

I know I keep prattling on about milrads, if you go down this path you will be on your own as very few people use them, preferring to use MOA. The exception being the European and UK Military. The good news is if you get your hands on any European sniper system you will feel perfectly at home. Handy come the revolution

Kick the trend, be different! I can talk you through milrads/1cm klicks and it is so easy to get on with, also once used to the system the reticle will allow you to accurately range distances. (I also use a Leica laser range finder as I am lazy these days)

BTW have you seen the phrase first focal plane and second focal plane? Second focal plane (SFP) means the reticle stays the same size as you zoom in and out, it also means you have to be at a fixed magnification to range distances. First focal plane (FFP) you can range at any magnification but the reticle gets smaller as you zoom out.

I use FFP so yes the reticle looks smaller as I zoom out but I can always accurately determine the distance to target.

Cheers Mate, now me head is really hurting, how about I give you the £'s and you buy one for me LOL


CK

[Ovenpaa]

Cheers Mate, now me head is really hurting, how about I give you the £'s and you buy one for me LOL

I seem to remember a certain DM saying it is always easier to choose things when it is not your money :)

Dangermouse does have some very good points as well, I think you need to decide what you are going to do with the rifle when you get it and Mik Mak is second to none at rifle building and has his own range so you can test fire and load develop with a cup of tea and the man that built the rifle.

[Ovenpaa]

Just a thought... I picked up a used 42X Nightforce last year, I have to admit I was very sceptical about it however it was at a price too good to miss and it really does perform well. Christel shoots with a 24X IOR which has stunning glass but I am used to finer turrets so it feels clunky to me. Try a few, I have my own views on the subject..

Have a look at KAPS 'scopes. I have shot with one on an AI a few times recently, they do not do huge magnifications but they are well priced and rather special, certainly beating Kahles and Swarovski and well into S&B territory, they also appear to use Schott glass as per Zeiss.

Why not post your short list of 'scopes in a new thread, I am sure it will provoke some controversy and wails of despair as 'scopes are a very personal thing :lol: