shooting LBR's or sec1 shotguns on someone elses ticket.

[bradaz11]

I've been looking at the law on LBR's, trying to find where it says that these cannot be used by someone else at a range. all I can find is this in the HO guidance

13.49
Under section 44 of the 1997 Act, a person whose only r
eason for possessing a rifle or
muzzle loading pistol is for target shooting must be a member of a target shooting club
approved by the Home Office or the Scottish Government Safer Communities Directorate.
They are subject to the condition that the rifle or muzzle loading pistol is only to be used
for target shooting. The applicant is not confined to shooting only under the auspices of
that club and many applicants will wish to shoot with other clubs. However, membership
of a particular club will generally be the core of the applicant’s “good reason” and is likely
to be the focus of much of their shooting activity. In some cases however, the “good
reason” for certain firearms may be activities in a club other than the one nominated club.
Long-barrelled pistols, long-range pistols, section 1 shotguns and full bore rifles designed
or adapted to fire ammunition capable of discharging projectiles at muzzle energies
greater than 10,000 foot pounds do not fall within the three Home Office categories of
approval for target shooting clubs, and therefore they cannot take advantage of the free
club certificate issued to Home Office approved clubs. They can, however, be held on an
individual’s firearm certificate as long as they have the facilities to use the firearms for target
shooting. Long-barrelled revolvers, long-range pistols, section 1 shotguns and full bore
rifles designed or adapted to fire ammunition capable of discharging projectiles at muzzle
energies greater than 10,000 foot pounds may not be borrowed at a range for use by
other club members

now, is it that another FAC holder can shoot one of my rifles at our club, by virtue of the club's ticket? and as LBR's are not covered on the club ticket they then cannot be borrowed?
similar in that if myself and the same friend were both pest shooters, with the same permissions, when on that land, we would not be alowed to shoot the others rifle??

or is there another bit of legislation that covers LBR's and their use?

[lasbrisas]

As far as I know legally section 1 shotguns, LBR and LBP HAVE to be on your FAC to be able to shoot them. I have 2 section 1 shotguns for PSG and my 2 sons had to have their own FAC with it listed before they could use them.

[safetyfirst]

Seconded. The serial number has to be on your ticket.

Pointless self defeating nonsense.

How many people have LBP's sat cold in their cabinets because they couldn't try their Mates gun or shoot a club gun before they bought their own and found out they couldn't hit anything with a pistol because it's really hard.

It's a law designed to prevent the proliferation of pistols that actually promotes the proliferation of pistols.

Who said our firearms legislation needs a rethink?

[bradaz11]

but where does it say that? as I can only find mention of it not able to be on a club ticket. or is the reason I gave above spot on?

[Chapuis]

Bradaz your first interpretation of the guidance is correct. Unfortunately LBRs, LBPs and section one shotguns do not come under the exemption for Home Office approved clubs that would permit their use by other club members.

Also as these are not usually used for sporting use (i.e. "hunting") you cannot take advantage of the estate rifle rule either. So they have to be on your certificate for you to be able to use them legally.


P.S. Just another stupid spiteful and unnecessary law that serves no useful purpose.

[Chuck]

Does anyone actually follow this to the letter - seen plenty folks using other peoples LBR's and 1 shotguns.....just saying.

[bradaz11]

i couldn't possibly comment on that chuck, on an open forum and all.

I know Oundle seemed to be very hot on making sure a friend and his father using their LBR had it on both of their tickets.

but its good to know. as I've said before, I understand it's the law, I just don't know why. so what do clubs have that enable me to let another shooter shoot my rifle? (as my rifle is not on the club ticket)

[Kungfugerbil]

^ I don't let anyone else use my LBP even though I've been asked. I value my ticket and those of my fellow club members enough to not jeopardise them by going against the rules.

That's just me though, I can understand why some folks do as its bloody daft.

[bradaz11]

I think it's one of those things, If it is only you and a member or two that you know well, is a bit of a different situation to some stranger on a busy range

[Sim G]

LBR/P, s1 shotgun, Long Range pistols and rifles exceeding 10k ft/lbs ME, even though held on FAC are not authorised, by the Home Office, for use by approved clubs. Even though individual members can hold such firearms, the club cannot. As a member of a HO approved club a person can, without a firearm certificate, have in their possession firearms and ammunition for use with that club. As the firearms stated do not have approval, those without a certificate can not use them. That would also apply to those who have a certificate, but do not have those firearms listed as being authorised to possess. They could not take advantage of the approve club clause. s15 Frireams Ammendment Act 1988 refers.

Likewise, whilst on private premises, a person without a certificate can be in possession of a rifle and ammunition if the certificate holder or servant with a certificate is present. The "estate rifle clause". This section sprcifically states rifles. s1 shotguns, LBRs and long range pistols do not fall into this. It could be surmised that if a certificate holder has authority to shoot a .50 cal over specific private lands then this section could be taken advantage of. s16 Furearms Ammendment Act 1988 refers.

A point for those who haven't been around the sport as long in relation to the LBR/Ps. When handguns were effectively banned they actually weren't banned per se. Obviously "handgun" would require a no doubt lengthy and complicated definition so the government made "short firearms" ie those with a barrel of less than 12 inches and an OAL less than 24", except muzzle loading, subject to s5 of the FA Act 1968. After a couple of years of the Ammendment Act 1997, the concept of the LBR/P came to the fore in response to those ex pistol shooters who really couldn't get on with the hassle and different style if ML.

It seemed fairly straight forward. A mechanically operated full bore and a semi automatic rimfire that complied with the legislation as "long firearms" what could be the issue for approval by the HO for club use. The problem was a thing at the time called the Firearms Consultative Committee. This committee consisted of a few of the shooting organisations on one side and the police, GCN, Snowdrop (Dunblane campaign) and anti gun "academics" on the other. The LBR was immediately and hysterically labelled a "loop hole" with callous shooters exploiting the specific technical aspect of the legislation whilst flouting the "spirit" of the law.

An awful lot of work by Westlake if memory serves and the Sportsman Association managed to negotiate away a ban on this "type" of firearm. The compromise involved exactly as it is, available on s1, but not approved for HO club use. You must remember that this was a long fought and hard won battle. On the back of a ban an vehement anti rhetoric it was a great victory in gaining something "for our side".

One aspect that seems often forgotten these days as well. Is that the Home Office Instruction to Chief Officers that approved this "firearm type" fir s1, is that the instruction also included that a note be issued with every variation grant that the Home Secretary could at any time declare anything "especially dangerous" and ban it, and if was done so in the case of LBRs then no compensation from the government would be payable. Thus I believe is still the case.