section 58 converted to live fire and it's legality

[the running man]

So...section 58 stuff "wall hangers" someone buys it from a RFD as a sec 58 (without commercial proof marks) sticks it on their fac and starts shooting it.......any laws been broken?

Any insurance related complications?
Any declarations needed?

[FredB]

Most of my guns fit this description. Sometimes they are good shooters and keepers and sometimes they are natural wall hangers, in which case i take them off ticket again.
Fred

[the running man]

Trying to drill down I to the legal stuff really.....I've heard lots of conflicting stuff on the legal pitfalls of doing this.....

[Robert303]

See next post. Tried to delete this one.

[Robert303]

On the original post I would say NO Fireams Law i.e Firearms Act 1968 (As Amended) has been broken. Others might argue that PROOF law has been broken in that NO firearm may be sold that is not in proof except between dealers. (I do not have my proof notes to hand) . I doubt the police would worry about the Proof laws unless they were desperate to get you for 'something' and could not find anything to get you with under firearms laws.

As to insurance that would depend on the policy but all insurance companies look to avoid paying out so no proof would give them the out.

Check with your local FEO, they should not vary but do. Good ones allow you to notify ON FAC and OFF FAC. My old one used to say once on FAC it could NOT come off.
I then demonstrated how it could be done. He was not amused.

[Gaz]

How is it done, out of interest? Just a letter to the force?

[the running man]

So a dealer sells a sec 58 as a wall hanger the customer buys it with the express intention of shooting it,the dealer sells them all the reloading kit for it.....everything still in the realms of legal?

Are there restrictions on powder type or who can shoot it?

What happens if they put a nitro load through something old and it blows up?

Is it covered by insurance? If not surely your in breach of your fac conditions that state. You must have adequate insurance?

[Laurie]

So a dealer sells a sec 58 as a wall hanger the customer buys it with the express intention of shooting it,the dealer sells them all the reloading kit for it.....everything still in the realms of legal?

No, and RFDs won't knowingly make a sale here as to do so makes them an accessory to a criminal act, or at any rate the likely intention to commit one. In fact, most if not all RFDs won't sell a firearm to somebody they know already owns such a piece on-ticket. I met a Martini Cadet collector and shooter once who told me with considerable indignation that he had half a dozen of the blighters but would have had one more if the dealer concerned hadn't been 'unreasonable'. He'd handed over the cheque for the rifle and was just lifting it off the shop counter when he happened to mention that he owned several examples and shot two or three of them as 'on-ticket' rifles. As soon as the dealer heard that, the rifle was pulled back, the cheque returned and the buyer told he could reserve it if he wished to buy against a variation. I asked several other RFDs about this subsequently and they all said they'd do the same thing.

Owning an S58 off-ticket and having handloading tools and components to shoot it is taken as prima facie evidence of an intention to own and use it illegally and this has been validated in several prosecutions over the years - catching the owner in the act of off-ticket shooting / ammunition ownership isn't required.

Years back, there was a get-out in that owners of 'curios' were allowed to shoot them once 'for research' or some such reason. I don't know if there is still such a get out of jail card - given the general tightening up on firearms ownership and application of the law, I'd doubt it.

[the running man]

Very interesting indeed....

But Wat about folk buying a sec 58 and at their earliest convenience putting straight onto their fac?

[MrD]

To put a sec 58 on your FAC as a shooter, you would need to have a free slot for that calibre. In that respect it is no different to acquiring any firearm.

As for proof, even with proof marks how do we (or a dealer) know that it is still in proof? I have no idea when my 1915 SMLE or 1887 Martini Henry were proofed (proved?). I'm sure a lot of WW1 or WW2 era rifles are sold on the assumption that they are still 'in-proof.'

As for the shooter using the wrong load/powder/etc., then the same could be true of any firearm and surely is outwith the control of the dealer.

Donald