When is an "obsolete" calibre not and "obsolete" calibre?

[targetman]

It seems that the Swedish 12.7X44R is the subject of much confusion and could possibly lead to problems with the authorities.

I have seen quite a few 12.7X44R Swedish Rolling Blocks offered for sale at Arms Fairs and on-line and at auction all offered as being "obsolete" Sec58.....

However, I have checked the Home Office list and other published lists and the 12.7X44R is NOT on any list I can find ....

Perhaps it was just missed from the list in error but the problem of legality of ownership still remains.

Does anybody have a definitive answer..?

[saddler]

WHICH edition of the list did you check?

I do a lot of trading over in Sweden, and know that the Swede 12.7 is classed as S.58 over here.

[targetman]

I checked the lastest Home Office list......which was the same as the previous ones in that the 12.7X44R is not mentioned...

I know that many assume it to be Sec58(2) BUT....it is not on the list therefore does not qualify as such.

I know someone that wants to sell one and is concerned about the possible consequences of doing so...

[targetman]

Just to confirm that latest Home Office list I refered to is:

Home Office "Guide on Firearms Licensing Law - 2014"....as updated on 14th July 2014.

[channel12]

I checked the lastest Home Office list......which was the same as the previous ones in that the 12.7X44R is not mentioned...

I know that many assume it to be Sec58(2) BUT....it is not on the list therefore does not qualify as such.

I know someone that wants to sell one and is concerned about the possible consequences of doing so...

Is 12.7x44R available as a commercially loaded round if so the HO doesn't consider it an obsolescent round. Of course it could be such an obscure round that the HO missed it off their list. Anyway I think their list isn't definitive but a list of examples of obsolescent rounds the test ultimately being the commercial availability of the round.

[targetman]

The 12.7X44R ammunition has not been available for donkey's years. The Swedish Rolling Block dates from 1864 and was originally a Rim-Fire....later converted to Centre Fire. Most rifles available date from the early to mid 1870s.

The fact that it does fit the definition of 'obsolete' means it should be on the HO list, however, as it is not it still has to be considered as a Sec 1......crazy though that may seem.

This is why I ask the question.......given the confusion, some may be in possession of an illegal firearm.

[mag41uk]

And define commercially available! Available in the UK or from worldwide?
Plenty of 12.7 rifles in the UK held as Sec58.
I was in a gun shop in Kentucky a few years back and asked if he had any Swiss Vetterli rimfire cases for my Swiss rifle collection.
He said no but I have a couple of boxes of ammo! So does this mean its commercially available ammo?

[targetman]

Not really.....I have original boxes of .577"/.450" Martini Henry military ammunition....but that calibre is obsolete by HO definition....and it was manufactured right up to the just pre-war period I believe.

It is all a very grey area......

[saddler]

Any HBSA advice on this?

[Sandgroper]

Have you thought about asking the HO? It's something I've considered regarding my 9mm Bergman (Largo) carbine and the 7.35mm Carcano.