Transporting club firearms

[ovenpaa]

Can someone tell me what the law is regarding the transport of club firearms that are not on your ticket if you are an official of the club?

[20series]

My understanding is that

Any club member can transport a club firearm, as long as they have the club FAC with them. This includes any individual not having a personal FAC.

Alan

[Robin128]

Don't think you can unless your name is on club ticket.

[20series]

It's in there somewhere but I'm buggered if I can make sense of it :?

Alan

[Robin128]

I had a good look thru before I posted... buggered if I can find it either.

[Robin128]

2002 Guidance to the Police...

Security of club premises...

18.12 The club’s co-operation should be
sought to ensure that the firearms and
ammunition owned by the club are stored
securely. The signatory of the club certificate
(usually the club secretary) is ultimately
responsible for the safekeeping of club
firearms and ammunition but the Secretary
of State and the Scottish Ministers take the
view that they need not necessarily be present
each time these are issued to or used by club
members. It is also acceptable for members
other than the firearm certificate holder, if
the activity is clearly in connection with
target shooting, to transport firearms to
another club or authorised range for a
competition or to a dealer for repair. It is
advisable when transporting firearms as a
member of a club to have some form of
written authorisation from a club official
(see also paragraph 22.15).

:)

[IainWR]

The critical bit of the law is S15 Firearms Act 1988. (To make it easier to read, I have edited out the words required to make this law work in Scotland, but it does apply there in an identical way)

15 Approved rifle clubs.

(1)Subject to subsection (4) below, a member of a rifle club approved by the Secretary of State may, without holding a firearm certificate, have in his possession a rifle and ammunition when engaged as a member of the club in connection with target shooting.

(2)Any rifle club may apply for approval, whether or not it is intended that any club members will, by virtue of subsection (1) above, have rifles or ammunition in their possession without holding firearm certificates.

(3)The Secretary of State may publish such guidance as he considers appropriate for the purpose of informing those seeking approval for a club of criteria that must be met before any application for such approval will be considered.

(4)The application of subsection (1) above to members of an approved rifle club may—

(a)be excluded in relation to the club, or

(b)be restricted to target shooting with specified types of rifle,

by limitations contained in the approval.

Things to note about the above:

It says nothing at all about the legal basis on which the firearm is originally held.
It does not define "in connection with target shooting"
It is limited to rifles (and by extension in the 1997 Act, Muzzle Loading Pistols).
It can be modified by terms inserted in the Club's Approval

So, in the strict words of the law, you can take any otherwise legally held rifle and do what you like with it as long as it is "in connection with target shooting", provided that your Club's Approval does not say otherwise. For instance, members of my Club have taken guns through Heathrow Airport on the basis of a letter from me stating that they were carrying "in connection with target shooting" ie to compete in a match overseas (once overseas they were covered by local laws on temporary import of firearms). Now I have been told by my local firearms enquiry officer that this is not what the law means. I have also been told by one of the most respected legal teachers in the land (on my degree course) that, in law, words are presumed to have their ordinary meaning, and that it is generally only permitted to read into the law words that are not there to the minimum extent required to reach a point where it makes sense. I submit that S15 is perfectly clear as it stands.

In other words, if you can prove you are a member of a HO Approved Club, and you can prove you are engaged in an activity "as a member of the club ... in connection with target shooting" you can carry a rifle (and by extension a MLP) without a certificate - and, unless the Club Approval says otherwise, without any other restrictions. And incidentally if you are wrong you are committing a criminal offence, in which it is up to the Crown to prove their point of view - if you do nothing that's their problem!

Iain Robertson

[ovenpaa]

Thanks rob.

Thank you also Iain, very nicely explained, you should do this for a living

[IainWR]

Well you have my advice, and another legal maxim is that advice is worth what you pay for it, so if you want my bill please PM me ...

[ovenpaa]

I know what my company charges for me per day however it will probably differ somewhat to your daily charge so will you settle for a coffee one day, or even better a beer!