Should you help?

[JS569]

The tragic event that occurred yesterday got me thinking, hypothetically I wonder if we had a concealed carry system (similar to many states in the US) how far this would of gone and whether it would have been interrupted as it started. The armed police took 20 mins to arrive, where as a civilian could of potentially been there the instant it kicked off.

Additionally as the law stands, what are the implications if a civilian who happened to be passing (for instance on the way to or from the range) and happened to intervene to protect public safety. An example comes to mind with the Whitehaven shootings a few years ago, if somebody reacted to stop the incident. I’m not saying it’s the right course of action but if you have the potential to stop something terrible from happening should you take it upon yourself to intervene?

As a shooter and generally as a member of society this is not something I ever want to do or have to consider. But I thought it would be interesting on what you legal should do but also morally? I can’t also help that think depending on how the press reported your actions it may affect the outcome for you. What are everyone’s thoughts?

[Tower75]

Grab your Broadie helmet. Unfortunately, my friend, this has been debated over many a'time here. There's pros and cons to every debate, but mostly just shouting.

[JS569]

ha well fair enough- but just to be clear, I'm not advocating action or anything. I just wondered what people thought on the subject

[TJC]

I think many more incidents like this will bring calls for the introduction of a concealed carry permit scheme or more realistically the arming of our entire police service. The police are always the best positioned to deal with these situations and should be front and centre of any response.

[Primer]

Alternatively if you were driving past would you use your car to intervene and have run them over to put them out of action?

I was really surprised that it took the ARU 14 mins to arrive after they were requested, I had the perception that there were lots more armed units in London.

[JS569]

I guess its a similar argument, using what you might have to hand- a car or a shovel or a cricket bat but it boils down to how much you personally want to risk, for instance the lady that talked to them for 20mins, she was incredibly brave to face them with nothing more than her ability to talk to them

[techguy]

Alternatively if you were driving past would you use your car to intervene and have run them over to put them out of action?

I was really surprised that it took the ARU 14 mins to arrive after they were requested, I had the perception that there were lots more armed units in London.

Even with lights+sirens it takes ages to get anywhere in London by road. 14 minutes sounds pretty quick really.. (not sure how far away they were)

[tackb]

i think you can use 'reasonable' force unfortunatley you have to make that decision in milliseconds whereas the sniveling gutter press would have the luxury of all the time they wanted , just the same as a court of law would have and rest assured that is where you would end up defending yourself!

[Dangermouse]

Regards where you stand in England and Wales using self defence, please see this post which gives you a link you should read - at least twice.

http://www.full-bore.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=12578

I am now going to have a rant. I have been bitting my tongue and it was not appropriate to put it on a post that started out as paying respects to the dead soldier - who by the way I hope turns out to be a Muslim or black etc. That will mess with a few peoples minds.

Whenever Police Officers complain about the working conditions or pay we hear people come back at us:
"You are no different to us, shut up and be grateful you have a job, we also have to work shifts, we have to get up early, get home late, work night shifts, work weekends, don't see our children for days at a time, miss important dates due to work loads, have to work Christmas, get no extra pay" etc etc

The reason that this argument gets Police Officers backs up is this.We do not have a Job, we joined the Police because we saw it as a calling, something that deep down inside we felt we had to do. Some how over the years being a Police Constable has gone from being a vocation to being a Job in the publics eyes and thus the public care little for us.

Mostly we can swallow the arguments that the average worker is no different to the roll of Constable, but where we do get annoyed is when the public neither recognises or accepts that there is any more danger in our job than their own.
Yesterday I watched images taken by the average passer by on their media devices of these two men doing their atrocious act. People stand back and watch, To my knowledge only one person had the courage to give first aid and engage the subjects. It has not gone unnoticed that she is a volunteer Scout leader, someone else who gives something back to society. At one point whilst she is talking to one of the men a woman actually walks past them with her shopping trolley.
Despite this being a busy road in central London, no member of the public actually physically tries to take the men on. This was not because they did not know what their legal powers were, it is because they were too scared to and they knew the Police would be along soon.
Well the Constables who arrived do not have the option of standing around doing nothing, that is a luxury for those who whinge and whine about us using too much force, not being civil during a riot etc. The unarmed Officers stood within danger distance of the men and put themselves between them and the public until the Armed Officers arrived and responded to what they were confronted with. The first Officers got there within 10 minutes, the armed Officers got there under 10 minutes from being requested by the control room. Both driving in heavy traffic in demanding circumstances to get there, but of course the public don't care about that when the Police have a crash or injure/kill someone on the way to a call. And of course they should not have all that gear, should not have bullet proof vests, should not have powerfully vehicles. Should not be allowed to snoop on suspected terrorists, monitor groups, read forums etc.

About time the F-ing public made it's mind up and decided what they do want because at the moment boys and girls I don't think Joe Public has any understanding of how battered and bruised the average Constable is feeling.

Rant Over, I am now going to Cadets where I volunteer as a leader 2 nights a week and many weekends.

DM

[Doz]

Despite this being a busy road in central London, no member of the public actually physically tries to take the men on. This was not because they did not know what their legal powers were, it is because they were too scared to and they knew the Police would be along soon.

DM, not disagreeing with anything you say, and apologies if I've misunderstood your comment but are you surprised nobody tries to take the men on? (A) there are two of them. (B) they are armed - something that nobody else at the scene is likely to be. I'm no shrinking violet but I'd damn well think twice about taking them on, and if I'd just seen them hacking off some poor sod's head I think I'd probably bit just a bit scared too!