The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

If you continue to be inflammatory and unable to say what you mean without being rude then you will continue to be edited.

At least you can use your indignation to give you a get out in this thread

Oh so someone can have an out of order go at my husband and I'm not allowed to comment?

I don't need a "get out" Dromia - don't be so patronising

You are allowed to comment and your comment rests, your inflammatory preamble to it wasn't necessary for you get your point across.

Mezzer wrote:sign01

Probably just as well he wasn't involved in the Piper Alpha investigation then (otherwise we would still be waiting for it).
Remember ... timely distribution of information pertaining to incident immediate / root causes is critical in preventing recurrence.

Mezzer

167 people died in the Piper Alpha disaster, and it cost over a billion dollars - So there was quite rightly a whole army of people working full time on the investigation...

...to use it as an example in this thread is ridiculous.

Dougan wrote:

Mezzer wrote:sign01

Probably just as well he wasn't involved in the Piper Alpha investigation then (otherwise we would still be waiting for it).
Remember ... timely distribution of information pertaining to incident immediate / root causes is critical in preventing recurrence.

Mezzer

167 people died in the Piper Alpha disaster, and it cost over a billion dollars - So there was quite rightly a whole army of people working full time on the investigation...

...to use it as an example in this thread is ridiculous.

Ridiculous ...? Hardly!

If an investigation of that depth and scope can be completed in 16 months, there is no reason why a simple firearms incident can't be investigated, mitigated and communicated in a considerably shorter period than 12 months? As stated, this is all about perspective and response. The actual event doesn't matter (because it's already history), the trick is to prevent it happening again and as always, time is crucial.

Mezzer

Mezzer wrote:
Ridiculous ...? Hardly!

If an investigation of that depth and scope can be completed in 16 months, there is no reason why a simple firearms incident can't be investigated, mitigated and communicated in a considerably shorter period than 12 months? As stated, this is all about perspective and response. The actual event doesn't matter (because it's already history), the trick is to prevent it happening again and as always, time is crucial.

Mezzer

Actually Mezzer I agree with the last statement, but it depends what will be achieved by the info and what resources you have available (and the potential impact on not putting the info out)

Investigations take as long as they need to take, particularly where other agencies are involved.

Whenever and wherever we have had an air incident in the past, if there was a sudden and unexplained failure (particularly one resulting in loss of life) the type involved was usually grounded. I remember when one of our Lynx lost a blade. The reaction to this was quite rightly instant and far reaching, complex, and costly.

The impact was obvious. A helicopter and crew (just dropped off 6 high ranking officers) loses a blade and piles in. We don't know why, but we have them in front line service in several countries across the world. we panic.

Now, I have no doubt if this had been a rifle using factory ammo, the ramifications would have been far reaching and have included the manufacturer, dealers, importers etc.

I am guessing that as the cause was not instantly obvious (and still not entirely certain) or likely to re occur across the sport, it was felt that nothing needed knee jerk recording and people warning, so don't panic, get your facts right and report accurately.

You also have to realise that those carrying out the investigations may only have one shot at it (or parts of it) and will by default be proportioning blame on others, so they need to get it as right as they can.

I think comparing investigation time scales of a non fatal firearm failure with a major oil rig disaster is a bit off to be fair. The imperative on preventing a whole oil field going up, massive loss off life, revenue, not to mention the ecological damage, of course they throw everything at that sort of accident, and they have the resources to do so.

Moreover, the piper alpha (and the deep water horizon) investigations rumbled on well after the initial findings.

I stand by my belief that the reporting chain needs to be better, but I don't believe that it needed to be done any quicker, and if it did, it would have been.

It is not even as though it is possible (or procedurally correct) to release info before an official investigation has concluded (in order to keep folk informed) as that in itself may prejudice any legally binding final conclusion.

Karen.....just accept that there is a lot of anti NRA types on this forum....best ignore them and not rise to their purile jibes.....

Sixteen months is a very long time for what is a simple ammunition accident investigation - especially when a club is denied shooting 'rights' throughout the period. And yes - this is a dead-simple investigation. I have done a dozen just like it, and supervised/reviewed the findings of a couple of dozen more.

Even complicated technical investigations that, for example require sending samples off for metallurgical examination, shouldn't take 16 months. The coronial investigations, Courts of Inquiry and so on can easily drag on for months, but the technical side of it - no. Even granting that the NRA may not have full-time ammunition technical experts and armourers on hand, I have to say that if my people took more than a few weeks to investigate a similar incident, I'd be wondering why.

DaveB wrote:Sixteen months is a very long time for what is a simple ammunition accident investigation - especially when a club is denied shooting 'rights' throughout the period. And yes - this is a dead-simple investigation. I have done a dozen just like it, and supervised/reviewed the findings of a couple of dozen more.

Even complicated technical investigations that, for example require sending samples off for metallurgical examination, shouldn't take 16 months. The coronial investigations, Courts of Inquiry and so on can easily drag on for months, but the technical side of it - no. Even granting that the NRA may not have full-time ammunition technical experts and armourers on hand, I have to say that if my people took more than a few weeks to investigate a similar incident, I'd be wondering why.

Dave;

I Concur. Like yourself, I am 'in the business'.

If my people required 12 months on such a simple investigation then they would be looking for work elsewhere.
We don't need answers and explanations to the Nth degree. What happened / Where did it happen / Why did it happen and what are we going to do about it is more than enough. The effort and resources required to conduct the investigation should be commensurate with the incident outcome / potential but always with a critical regard to time.
Perhaps the NRA / MoD should consider the formation of a joint national investigation team as previously suggested whose sole function would be to look at firearm incidents such as the Kingsbury event with the objective of establishing immediate / root causes in a timely manner?
I'm not suggesting that the Kingsbury incident hasn't been concluded properly ..... but rather that it took far too long to do so.
Unfortunately, it's a fact of life that incidents can and do happen. Firearm-related incidents will always attract more attention and by dealing with these events in a professional, transparent and timely manner it can only enhance the credibility of the shooting fraternity.

My thoughts and opinion only (based on 25 years experience in the H&S game)

Mezzer

DaveB wrote:Sixteen months is a very long time for what is a simple ammunition accident investigation

Er sixteen months? Have you read the report?

It happened in July 2013!