The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

IHACWTHYTATA.

So, in order to get this off the ground a framework would need in no particular order:

Political Will.

A legal framework: written in PLAIN ENGLISH not double speak. Clear definitions and a "NO DUTY TO RETREAT" clause. Reasonable force to be removed completely. Disparity of force to be better recognised.

Similar eligibility to current system but allowances made for older /infirm or impaired people who mustr have the same rights to defence.

The ownersahip of defensive firearms to be a RIGHT subject to set criteria, not a whimsical grant by police.

Warning shots to be treated as reckless discharge of a firearm.

Insurance / Liability cover for thos electing to have a defensive firearm.

Lawyers would need trained in this legislation too - there may be existing laws but they won't all apply to a whole new area.

Crimes and penalties would need to be established e.g provoking a fight to justify use of a firearm. COmmitting a crime using a firearm intended for defensive use.

Clear definition of ROE's for homeowners/tenants and for outdoor self defence. Basically you CAN get shot for burgling or mugging etc..

Clarification of accessories on weapons.. No race guns, tricked up specials etc..

Clarification on aceptable ammo - no homeloads etc etc

Education of the criminal fraternity via the media that you may get shot mugging or housebreaking.

No pre-emptive arrests for "attempted murder" / murder after a shooting unless FACTS clearly indicate foul play. Reasonable suspicion is too subjective.and open to abuse.

Persons defending themselves can not make statements till 48 hours later - ACCOMPANIED by their lawyer skilled in firearms law..

No restrictions on where arms may be carried conealed - crime can happen anywhere. Maybe some rules akin to drink driving for drink / carrying? establishments may choose to be "gun free zones" - and have liability if a shooting then occurs.

Swingeing penalties for theft of firearms or murdering someone with their own weapon (yeah yeah, the bad guy weill take your gun nonsense).

A structured and measured training programme by specialist defensive firearms instructors not necessarily or automatically ex forces / police. Training would also include legal ramifications, security and maintenance of firearms and Conflict Management to de-escalate situations. Also first aid such as First Person on Scene (FPOS i training), something that covers bullet wounds etc.

Training attitude and progress would also count towards ownership rights.

Re a structured ongoing measured and recorded training framework. - The NRA USA has the training framework - it would need little modification to suit the UK.

Training would require to be realistic and dynamic, not just static blatting. Targets should need to be realistic / reactive etc. Outdoor ranges would be needed as well as indoor.

A qualification shoot every say six months to ensure minimum standards.

Similar training to be available for shotguns and handguns.

Section 5 would need be repealed along with the minimum dimensions for shotguns...defensive firearms need to be just that.

Ammunition quantities to be more realistic for training purposes.

No requirements to lock defensive guns away - that defeats the whole objective - but again severe penalties for allowing guns to be accessed by children and unauthorised persons.

No right for criminals to sue those who shoot them unless it was proven that a crime had been committed by the person defending themself.

Owners would need clear education on their criminal, tactical and civil liabilities and recourse to legal advice and assistance.

Carry permit would show name of holder and photo (akin to licence) and firearm to be carried: a permit for each gun to be carried (not applicable to home only guns). Why - Because they need proficiency in each gun pistol sa only sa/da, revolver etc etc

Secure locking compartment if transporting guns and ammo in cars...glovebox is NOT secure storage.

Carry permit to include at least three mags (2+1).

Airlines to provide gun check in facilities for travellers.

Ok - anything else?

Chuck wrote:

Clarification of accessories on weapons.. No race guns, tricked up specials etc.. Not sure on the reason for this, clarification?

Clarification on aceptable ammo - no homeloads etc etc Again, not sure why this is an issue?

No restrictions on where arms may be carried conealed - crime can happen anywhere. Maybe some rules akin to drink driving for drink / carrying? establishments may choose to be "gun free zones" - and have liability if a shooting then occurs. Other than bars/pubs/clubs



Ok - anything else?

Agreed with all of those with some clarification on the above?

Chuck wrote:So, in order to get this off the ground a framework would need in no particular order:

Political Will.

A legal framework: written in PLAIN ENGLISH not double speak. Clear definitions and a "NO DUTY TO RETREAT" clause. Reasonable force to be removed completely. Disparity of force to be better recognised.

Similar eligibility to current system but allowances made for older /infirm or impaired people who mustr have the same rights to defence.

The ownersahip of defensive firearms to be a RIGHT subject to set criteria, not a whimsical grant by police.

Warning shots to be treated as reckless discharge of a firearm.

Insurance / Liability cover for thos electing to have a defensive firearm.

Lawyers would need trained in this legislation too - there may be existing laws but they won't all apply to a whole new area.

Crimes and penalties would need to be established e.g provoking a fight to justify use of a firearm. COmmitting a crime using a firearm intended for defensive use.

Clear definition of ROE's for homeowners/tenants and for outdoor self defence. Basically you CAN get shot for burgling or mugging etc..

Clarification of accessories on weapons.. No race guns, tricked up specials etc..

Clarification on aceptable ammo - no homeloads etc etc

Education of the criminal fraternity via the media that you may get shot mugging or housebreaking.

No pre-emptive arrests for "attempted murder" / murder after a shooting unless FACTS clearly indicate foul play. Reasonable suspicion is too subjective.and open to abuse.

Persons defending themselves can not make statements till 48 hours later - ACCOMPANIED by their lawyer skilled in firearms law..

No restrictions on where arms may be carried conealed - crime can happen anywhere. Maybe some rules akin to drink driving for drink / carrying? establishments may choose to be "gun free zones" - and have liability if a shooting then occurs.

Swingeing penalties for theft of firearms or murdering someone with their own weapon (yeah yeah, the bad guy weill take your gun nonsense).

A structured and measured training programme by specialist defensive firearms instructors not necessarily or automatically ex forces / police. Training would also include legal ramifications, security and maintenance of firearms and Conflict Management to de-escalate situations. Also first aid such as First Person on Scene (FPOS i training), something that covers bullet wounds etc.

Training attitude and progress would also count towards ownership rights.

Re a structured ongoing measured and recorded training framework. - The NRA USA has the training framework - it would need little modification to suit the UK.

Training would require to be realistic and dynamic, not just static blatting. Targets should need to be realistic / reactive etc. Outdoor ranges would be needed as well as indoor.

A qualification shoot every say six months to ensure minimum standards.

Similar training to be available for shotguns and handguns.

Section 5 would need be repealed along with the minimum dimensions for shotguns...defensive firearms need to be just that.

Ammunition quantities to be more realistic for training purposes.

No requirements to lock defensive guns away - that defeats the whole objective - but again severe penalties for allowing guns to be accessed by children and unauthorised persons.

No right for criminals to sue those who shoot them unless it was proven that a crime had been committed by the person defending themself.

Owners would need clear education on their criminal, tactical and civil liabilities and recourse to legal advice and assistance.

Carry permit would show name of holder and photo (akin to licence) and firearm to be carried: a permit for each gun to be carried (not applicable to home only guns). Why - Because they need proficiency in each gun pistol sa only sa/da, revolver etc etc

Secure locking compartment if transporting guns and ammo in cars...glovebox is NOT secure storage.

Carry permit to include at least three mags (2+1).

Airlines to provide gun check in facilities for travellers.

Ok - anything else?

You forgot to add , "And the complete dismantling of the entire Roman empire before wednesday, signed the peoples front of judea, or are we the popular front of judea Reg?"

Chuck wrote:So, in order to get this off the ground a framework would need in no particular order:

Political Will.

A legal framework: written in PLAIN ENGLISH not double speak. Clear definitions and a "NO DUTY TO RETREAT" clause. Reasonable force to be removed completely. Disparity of force to be better recognised.

Similar eligibility to current system but allowances made for older /infirm or impaired people who mustr have the same rights to defence.

The ownersahip of defensive firearms to be a RIGHT subject to set criteria, not a whimsical grant by police.

Warning shots to be treated as reckless discharge of a firearm.

Insurance / Liability cover for thos electing to have a defensive firearm.

Lawyers would need trained in this legislation too - there may be existing laws but they won't all apply to a whole new area.

Crimes and penalties would need to be established e.g provoking a fight to justify use of a firearm. COmmitting a crime using a firearm intended for defensive use.

Clear definition of ROE's for homeowners/tenants and for outdoor self defence. Basically you CAN get shot for burgling or mugging etc..

Clarification of accessories on weapons.. No race guns, tricked up specials etc..

Clarification on aceptable ammo - no homeloads etc etc

Education of the criminal fraternity via the media that you may get shot mugging or housebreaking.

No pre-emptive arrests for "attempted murder" / murder after a shooting unless FACTS clearly indicate foul play. Reasonable suspicion is too subjective.and open to abuse.

Persons defending themselves can not make statements till 48 hours later - ACCOMPANIED by their lawyer skilled in firearms law..

No restrictions on where arms may be carried conealed - crime can happen anywhere. Maybe some rules akin to drink driving for drink / carrying? establishments may choose to be "gun free zones" - and have liability if a shooting then occurs.

Swingeing penalties for theft of firearms or murdering someone with their own weapon (yeah yeah, the bad guy weill take your gun nonsense).

A structured and measured training programme by specialist defensive firearms instructors not necessarily or automatically ex forces / police. Training would also include legal ramifications, security and maintenance of firearms and Conflict Management to de-escalate situations. Also first aid such as First Person on Scene (FPOS i training), something that covers bullet wounds etc.

Training attitude and progress would also count towards ownership rights.

Re a structured ongoing measured and recorded training framework. - The NRA USA has the training framework - it would need little modification to suit the UK.

Training would require to be realistic and dynamic, not just static blatting. Targets should need to be realistic / reactive etc. Outdoor ranges would be needed as well as indoor.

A qualification shoot every say six months to ensure minimum standards.

Similar training to be available for shotguns and handguns.

Section 5 would need be repealed along with the minimum dimensions for shotguns...defensive firearms need to be just that.

Ammunition quantities to be more realistic for training purposes.

No requirements to lock defensive guns away - that defeats the whole objective - but again severe penalties for allowing guns to be accessed by children and unauthorised persons.

No right for criminals to sue those who shoot them unless it was proven that a crime had been committed by the person defending themself.

Owners would need clear education on their criminal, tactical and civil liabilities and recourse to legal advice and assistance.

Carry permit would show name of holder and photo (akin to licence) and firearm to be carried: a permit for each gun to be carried (not applicable to home only guns). Why - Because they need proficiency in each gun pistol sa only sa/da, revolver etc etc

Secure locking compartment if transporting guns and ammo in cars...glovebox is NOT secure storage.

Carry permit to include at least three mags (2+1).

Airlines to provide gun check in facilities for travellers.

Ok - anything else?

Is that all. I am glad you doint need to do that here. I know someone it trying to kill you but can you wait and do all the above before you can have have a firearm to defend yourself, whats the worst could happen while you are waiting. But i said there is more chance of pigs flying than people being allowed PPW/S in the rest of the UK thay doint even trust the police that are armed to take their firearms home with them for self defence.

Another two helpful posts, which ignore the request in post #1 about "It'll never happen" posts clapclap

If someone was facing an immediate threat there would need to be an expedited version. Or the Police could be asked to do their job or something

The original was what would be needed to make it happen - so there you have it.

To clarify;

Clarification of accessories on weapons.. No race guns, tricked up specials etc.. Not sure on the reason for this, clarification?

Because is a court opf law that could well count against you by an anti gun jury who would see a tricked up gun as easier to kill with e.g. he shot more rounds because of a slicked up trigger..race holster, intention to get gun out quicker.... Don't blame me, it happens..

Clarification on aceptable ammo - no homeloads etc etc Again, not sure why this is an issue? Because as in above a super hot load chould sho an INTENTION to kill. Self defence is NOT shoot to kill!

No restrictions on where arms may be carried conealed - crime can happen anywhere. Maybe some rules akin to drink driving for drink / carrying? establishments may choose to be "gun free zones" - and have liability if a shooting then occurs. Other than bars/pubs/clubs

What is says, if you declare a GUN FREE ZONE and someone gets shot then the business owner shares liability! There could be a don't drink and crry rule - not something I'd have a great issue with....

What I am trying to say is that to bring this about needs a LOT of infrastructure..I dare say some would like to be able to just buy a gun and keep it for defense, much as I agree with it for law abiding people with no criminal record there has to be guidelines.

We had a system in the past where we were allowed defensive firearms but that right - like a lot of others - was stolen from the people who, at the time - didn't care...

Is that all. I am glad you doint need to do that here. I know someone it trying to kill you but can you wait and do all the above before you can have have a firearm to defend yourself, whats the worst could happen while you are waiting. But i said there is more chance of pigs flying than people being allowed PPW/S in the rest of the UK thay doint even trust the police that are armed to take their firearms home with them for self defence.

Well if you want it that's what's needed LEGALLY. You will have a lot of that in Ireland, when you lay it out it looks a heavy task..much of the groundwork has been done in Ireland maybe? Not familiar with Irish right to carry rules...can you expand for us on that ?..

Gazoo - Roman empire already gone - EU empire about to follow. the Judea national front now replaced by ISIS and living right amongst you NOW!

It wouldn't be hard to implement all they need to do is copy the way it's done in Northern Ireland.

That would be too simple for them - the lawyers and hangers on wouldn't make as much money..If there was a pie they could their digits into it could happen.

Not enough cash in it for MP's to show interest..though it would be a revenue generator.

Hunter87 wrote:It wouldn't be hard to implement all they need to do is copy the way it's done in Northern Ireland.

The problem is what would be seen as acceptable by politicians and the public to allow in Northern Ireland, would be different to what would allowed main land UK.