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I'd just like to add my two cents (or pence?) to this. On the subject of Afghanistan, one thing sticks in my mind. It was the story my dad told me that stuck with him from his Teenage years, the news on Telly broke that the Russian's had invaded and he remembered my great grandfather laughing, he was laughing as he'd been there last time in the 20's (we used to have a somewhat comical picture of him on the camel with a car steering wheel as they had to take the vehicles apart and go on camel, it was sadly burnt by my great grandmother who out of spite burnt his photos and possibly gave his campaign medals away, my father was furious about that as granddad had promised him those).

Anyway he laughed saying fighting them was like hunting for mist, you cannot hope to find or fight all the time. Every venture ends in failure, even Alexander the great's empire died there. I seem to recall part of the invasion was in support of the Afghanistani Communist government who on paper were an improvement over the tribal governance of before (education for women among other policies) but the none of this was properly enforced and I believe the Afghani Communist leader was capture when the Russians left, castrated and hung.

It drained there resources too, which is what the Americans wanted and its no mistake that glasnost and other changes in Soviet policy occured at this time.

I'm just stating what I know of there, I am not going to take any sides here, for once I'm not taking sides on this thread.

Sixshot, have to say I agree with your great grandfather. I remember saying to my wife when the news broke that the fools had learnt nothing from history.

Blu wrote:Sixshot, have to say I agree with your great grandfather. I remember saying to my wife when the news broke that the fools had learnt nothing from history.

Those that fail to learn are doomed to repeat, applies to everyone who goes in, regardless of intent, good, ill or otherwise. Also it was one of his few wise moments. I'm not going to say why that was as its bit too personal, but I know you and other posters will respect why that is and leave it at that.

The tragedy with Afghanistan is, you can be good (Nato Coalition forces, debatable, depends on the fence you sit, I'm not going into that), Bad (Russians, once more a debate I am not going into), a genius (Alexander the Great) or just plain stubborn (Britsh Empire, once again, debatable). The end result though appears to be the same. The warlords come back (In modern times we see the Muhajeen and the Taliban were just one faction who actually didn't control the country in the way they wanted for as long as people think) and end up ruling it in an Autocratic and sometimes down right Theologically extreme manner. Whatever we debate here, the result will likely end the same.

Edit:

Another symptom of invading Afghanistan appears to be the death of your empire or decline as a civilization.

Sixshot6 wrote: Another symptom of invading Afghanistan appears to be the death of your empire or decline as a civilization.

I very much doubt that seeing as we had 3 Wars with Afghanistan in 1839-1842, 1878-1880 and finally 1919.
The First was while the Empire was building, Second when the Empire was near its zenith in power and the third post Great War, which to be honest, if you want to claim the Empire was dead by the point (which I have seen argued) then I feel the Great War had more to do with it, especially the fact that the Great War turned us from the world's largest creditor nation to the world's largest debtor.

Seeing as the Empire lived on until the end of the Second World War, then I don't think Afghanistan had anything to do with the ending of the Empire or our Civilisation. Also Alexander basically waltzed through what was to become Afghanistan, it was political issues and an exhausted army that brought an end to his campaign. Genghis also went through, again, with little opposition.

dave_303 wrote:

Sixshot6 wrote: Another symptom of invading Afghanistan appears to be the death of your empire or decline as a civilization.

I very much doubt that seeing as we had 3 Wars with Afghanistan in 1839-1842, 1878-1880 and finally 1919.
The First was while the Empire was building, Second when the Empire was near its zenith in power and the third post Great War, which to be honest, if you want to claim the Empire was dead by the point (which I have seen argued) then I feel the Great War had more to do with it, especially the fact that the Great War turned us from the world's largest creditor nation to the world's largest debtor.

Seeing as the Empire lived on until the end of the Second World War, then I don't think Afghanistan had anything to do with the ending of the Empire or our Civilisation. Also Alexander basically waltzed through what was to become Afghanistan, it was political issues and an exhausted army that brought an end to his campaign. Genghis also went through, again, with little opposition.

I forgot those last examples, that is why I'm glad to be on here, you learn something new everyday. Yep, becoming a debtor didn't help, I guess the Soviet Union was already f*** too when you read up on what the west really knew and the Afghan adventure just broke the camels back. Genghis Khan was simply a force never seen since. I wonder why though, no ever lasting peaceful settlement has even come to the Afghanis though?

I read a good argument regarding "the rules of war". It was arguing that killing is bad for both parties involved in the war. And I guess applies to why hollow points are frowned upon (also why the Germans tried to have shotguns "trench guns" banned).

Yep the good old M97. I own two. Unfortunately, in 1934 there was no 3" mag slug so the barrel is pretty light. But it's true, the Germans wanted them banned bc we shot their grenades back into their trenches like skeet and slam fired our way through their dugout lines, hence the moniker "trench gun." I bought a Browning Citori awhile back and after putting about 10 shells down the O/U barrels wondered why I ever bought it. Trying to sell it now because there's nothing like firing a Winchester 97. If it flies, it won't after that platform unloads. Just shooting from the hip is even pretty accurate with the M97. I put the Citori back in the box and under the bed. No need for it.