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Re: US to replace FMJ pistol ammo with Hollow points?
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:33 pm
by snayperskaya
Blu wrote: and then come back to me on the "Soviet tactics of indiscriminate killing" and "destroying suspect villages".
Hmm think I prefer the testimony of the some 4 million people displaced by the Soviet invasion, people such as doctors, lawyers as well as farmers and shepherds.
If their testimony isn't good enough for you then there is also the The Paris based Medecins sans Frontiers which operated six hospitals inside Afghanistan, Its executive director, Dr. Claude Malhuret, charges that
the Soviets have deliberately bombed and destroyed hospitals run by the European group, and routinely drop anti-personnel mines designed to maim rather than kill--because "an injured person is much more trouble (to the guerrillas) than a dead person.
The French doctor confirms that Soviet helicopters drop booby-trapped toys, in most cases plastic pens or small red trucks. In his words, "Their main targets are children whose hands and arms are blown off."
On top of all that I have my very own ex Soviet Para Lieutenant (later Captain) who served four tours in Afghanistan and whom I call friend. Believe me, I've heard it straight from the horses mouth from someone who was there. Compared to the Soviets, the Yanks and other NATO forces are a model of civility.
I too have a friend who was a VDV trooper on the ground in Afghanistan so I too have "heard it from the horses mouth".The "booby-trapped toys" were infact PFM-1 butterfly mines which were indeed dropped from helicopters, often being brightly coloured they were attractive to children but they were not the intended target.If you read Afgantsy you would see that the Afghans had more respect for the Russians than they did for later Coalition forces.There was an instance early on in the "War on Terror" in Afghanistan where the US had a shortage of transport helicopters and pilots so they hired them from a Russian company, using helicopters and pilots that flew in the Soviet operation there.Anyway a helicopter was shot down by the Taliban killing the Russian crew and the US personnel on board.The Taliban refused to hand over the bodies of those killed until the Russians pointed out the pilot and co-pilot were Russian citizens.....within two days the bodies of the pilot and co-pilot were handed over to a Russian delegation.
I have heard first-hand from Afghans that unlike the Americans the Russians would ask to be invited into an Afghan home and that in remote areas Russian 'Zastavas (small outposts) were often reliant on nearby villages for supplies and Intel so forged good relations where possible.
Obviously if you don't take up the opportunity to read Afgantsy and maybe broaden your mind on the subject can we agree to disagree and keep the topic on track.
Re: US to replace FMJ pistol ammo with Hollow points?
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:15 pm
by Blu
Obviously if you don't take up the opportunity to read Afgantsy and maybe broaden your mind on the subject can we agree to disagree and keep the topic on track.
No it is not obvious, and my mind does not need broadened on this subject thank you. The fact is I prefer to believe the accounts of people who where there and saw the atrocities as opposed to Sir Rodric Quentin Braithwaite who never even set foot in the country. Your problem my friend is if it's Soviet/Russian it can do no wrong. I suggest you're the one that needs to broaden their mind if anything.
I prefer to believe people like the good doctor who actually saw the booby trapped toys and had to deal with the after effects of them along with our friend over here who also confirms booby trapped toys were dropped by the Soviets.
This from a 1985 report
Soviet Toys of Death
Published: December 10, 1985
A powerful antiwar poster that Americans saw everywhere in 1970 showed bodies heaped in the Vietnamese village of My Lai. The caption was terse, taken from an inquiry into that massacre perpetrated by Americans: ''Q. And babies? A. And babies.''
No such posters draw attention to the ghastly, deliberate crippling of children by Soviet invaders in Afghanistan. Indeed, having grown sceptical of Presidential anecdotes, some Americans may wonder if Ronald Reagan was talking through his evil-empire hat when he accused Russians of sowing insurgent areas with bombs disguised as toys. The evidence isn't anecdotal. The evil is real.
It lies exposed in a report to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights. This inquiry, the first ever by the U.N. into abuses charged against a Communist state, seems to have been scrupulously conducted by an Austrian legal expert, Felix Ermacora. Barred from Afghanistan, he gathered incontrovertible testimony of the slaughter of civilians from Afghans who fled to Pakistan.
The report asserts: ''The most horrible type of incident was that caused by the explosion of anti-personnel mines and especially of children's 'toys.' Many witnesses testified that children had been very seriously wounded, having their hands or feet blown off, either by handling booby-trap toys they had picked up along the roadway, or by stepping on them. . . .
''The types of booby-trap toys encountered include those resembling pens, harmonicas, radios or matchboxes, and little bombs shaped like a bird. This type of bomb, consisting of two wings, one flexible and the other rigid, in the shape and colors of a bird, explodes when the flexible wing is touched.
''The Special Rapporteur was also able to obtain a number of photographs, especially those of children between 8 and 15 years of age, with hands or legs blown off, either by handling booby-trap toys or during the explosion of mines.''
To the generalized horror of a war that has claimed 500,000 lives since 1979, there is thus added the special horror of toys of death. No wonder the Soviet bloc tries to defame the messenger. It contends that Mr. Ermacora is pro-Nazi because he served Hitler's army, as a private. Tellingly, the Soviet Union found nothing wrong with his credentials when he presented reports about human rights abuses in Chile and South Africa.
Please! You may be convinced the Soviets were all nice and polite in Afghanistan, the rest of us prefer to look without the red tinted classes
Re: US to replace FMJ pistol ammo with Hollow points?
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:33 pm
by Blu
One other thing, those "brightly coloured" PFM-1 butterfly mines. Why do you think they were brightly coloured? Do you imagine they were like that so people would easily see them and not step on them
Re: US to replace FMJ pistol ammo with Hollow points?
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:55 pm
by snayperskaya
I am not convinced of anything and do not have "red tinted classes" (whatever they are).I do not see the Soviets/Russians as perfect by any stretch of the imagination and of course they can do bloody wrong, to think otherwise would be ridiculous, as it would be to say Americans etc etc are perfect.One only has to look at Chechnaya to see how brutal the Russians can be, but if you are fighting an equally brutal enemy things will get ugly and unspeakable atrocities will unfortunately be commited by both sides.War is brutal and can bring out the worst in mankind regardless of the flag you fight under
"The fact is I prefer to believe the accounts of people who where there and saw the atrocities as opposed to Sir Rodric Quentin Braithwaite who never even set foot in the country."
He may not have stepped foot in the country and if you haven't read his work how can you formulate a balanced, structured view?.Rodric Braithwaite was Ambassador to Moscow at the time of the conflict and spent years researching documents and interviewing those involved, his work is full of "accounts of those who were there" so how is his work any less valid in formulating an informed rational opinion?.
Anyway I'm done now, its been a long day and I need a cuppa and a ciggie
Re: US to replace FMJ pistol ammo with Hollow points?
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:22 pm
by Blu
Dude Rodric Braithwaite was convinced that the Soviets invaded Afghanistan on solid political grounds. Well right there is where he lost me, I read Afghansty, oh, about 25 years ago but you know, I think I going to see if I still have it around and give it a read again.
Re: US to replace FMJ pistol ammo with Hollow points?
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:28 pm
by snayperskaya
Blu wrote:Dude Rodric Braithwaite was convinced that the Soviets invaded Afghanistan on solid political grounds. Well right there is where he lost me, I read Afghansty, oh, about 25 years ago but you know, I think I going to see if I still have it around and give it a read again.
My last words on this subject are how did you read Afgantsy about 25 years ago when it was first published in 2011?, did you somehow time travel back to 1990 with a copy?..........
Re: US to replace FMJ pistol ammo with Hollow points?
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:32 pm
by breacher
snayperskaya wrote:Blu wrote:Dude Rodric Braithwaite was convinced that the Soviets invaded Afghanistan on solid political grounds. Well right there is where he lost me, I read Afghansty, oh, about 25 years ago but you know, I think I going to see if I still have it around and give it a read again.
My last words on this subject are how did you read Afgantsy about 25 years ago when it was first published in 2011?, did you somehow time travel back to 1990 with a copy?..........
Re: US to replace FMJ pistol ammo with Hollow points?
Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:27 am
by Blu
snayperskaya wrote:Blu wrote:Dude Rodric Braithwaite was convinced that the Soviets invaded Afghanistan on solid political grounds. Well right there is where he lost me, I read Afghansty, oh, about 25 years ago but you know, I think I going to see if I still have it around and give it a read again.
My last words on this subject are how did you read Afgantsy about 25 years ago when it was first published in 2011?, did you somehow time travel back to 1990 with a copy?..........
Yeah you got me, I should read my posts before posting. The 5 shouldn't be there, but I failed to see the solid political grounds he writes about in the book.
Re: US to replace FMJ pistol ammo with Hollow points?
Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:05 am
by 25Pdr
Don't forget the Puckle Gun..
Clicky...
It is a tripod-mounted, single-barreled flintlock weapon fitted with a multishot revolving cylinder. It was intended for shipboard use to prevent boarding. The barrel was 3 feet (0.91 m) long with a bore of 1.25 inches (32 mm). It had a pre-loaded cylinder which held 11 charges.[1] It was thus a manually operated (and therefore externally powered) repeating firearm.
Two versions
Puckle demonstrated two versions of the basic design: one, intended for use against Christian enemies, fired conventional round bullets, while the second variant, designed to be used against the Muslim Turks, fired square bullets. The square bullets were considered to be more damaging. They would, according to the patent, convince the Turks of the "benefits of Christian civilization." The square bullets, however, were discontinued due to their unpredictable flight pattern
Re: US to replace FMJ pistol ammo with Hollow points?
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:16 am
by froggy
"brightly coloured" PFM-1 butterfly mines. Why do you think they were brightly coloured? Do you imagine they were like that so people would easily see them and not step on them
Blu, I remember reading about those "booby-trapped toys" & being also horrified by the stories.
To put the record straight, by "brightly coloured" read "green prairie" plastic. It was a pretty much a standard colour at the time for Warsaw Pact ordnance absolutely nothing specific to make it attractive to little hands. As matter of fact it was just a shade lighter from the plastic casing of the "ink pot" anti-personal French mine that I handled.
Now has far as the shape is concerned, the Soviet mine was actually a carbon copy of a contemporary US design . So once again nothing specific or sinister to target civilian population let alone children.
Not that it makes it any better, but I am pretty sure those US mines killed as many Vietnamese or Laotian children that the Soviet's ones killed Afghan kids. The sad truth is that US was just much better at keeping its use under wrap and of course had a better propaganda tool relayed by all the medias to influence the public. I am not trying in any way to defend the Soviet army, which has been well known & proven to be quite brutal at times, but this entire toy mines is pure Bull-Sh*t .