Israel: Giving its people a chance.

[Sixshot6]

[quote="Sixshot6"

why only 32 cal? Do you mean 32acp? That seems like falling under the some gun is better than none category (still more gun than here still). I'd have thought that if a cal limit for PP was around it should be either 380 acp or 38 special.

The largest caliber you are allowed in this part of the UK for a PPW is 9MM. I do know some in the UDR were issued with .22 handguns for PP.

In the mid-1970s the Royal Army Ordnance Corps purchased about 3000 Walther PPs in 22LR for the Ulster Defence Regiment, an infantry regiment. These guns were designated L66A1 and described, maybe a touch grandiosely, as a PDW or "personal defense weapon". Ostensibly, these pistols were used for off duty carry by UDR members, were popular among servicewomen and occasionally used for training

I take it those were PPK clones made by some other brand ? As Walter only made true PPKs in 380 or 32 ???[/quote]

PP's are the larger brother of the PPK Joe. I once had a conversation with an ex police sniper about the use of PPK's and the withdrawal after failing to fire when that bodyguard's failed during the Princess Anne kidnapping attempt. What he told was they bought Aluminum framed PPK's rather than the Steel framed ones due to being lighter, sadly this also meant the frames cracked quicker and he speculated that the failure to fire in that regard was a result of a cracked frame from too much use (I know's its a running joke about lack of practice but something tells me that bodyguard may have actually decided to practice more). Back to the PP's, like I said larger than a PPK (the frame was combined with a PPK slide to create the PPK/S for the US market post gun control act of 1968 (PPK's failed the height test and that why numerous US made PPK's came about). As far as the US is concerned pistols like Glock 43's appeared to have displaced it in the CCW market. 380 ACP remains popular in various latin countries due to it being the most powerful semi auto round you can own (Mexico and Brazil come to mind here).

But once again, its a real walther and the PPK (K for Kurz, german for short) is the little brother. It better known due to being James Bond's gun.

Rambling over.

[breacher]

Breacher:

Apparently it is very hard to get a gun permit in Israel. Never mind training as a civilian.

Seems the rules are being relaxed and those already with a gun are being encouaged to carry it .

Sixshsot, calibre is not so important as shot placement. Make enough holes - even with a .22 - and you'll get a result. A lot depends on the MOTIVATION of the aggressor too.

A .22 will do the business - just look at how many stone throwers the Israelis are stopping with it.

Most suicide bombers / stabbers are tanked up on medication so .22 might not work so well.

[breacher]

We should have same policy here ! If I'm certified to hold firearms at home and carry them in my car with 200 rounds to the range then I can be trusted to have one on my person for protection (subject to a ppw course)

Because carrying anything for self defence is illegal subject to very few exceptions. And the ones on your fac are for sporting purposes only.

[joe]

We should have same policy here ! If I'm certified to hold firearms at home and carry them in my car with 200 rounds to the range then I can be trusted to have one on my person for protection (subject to a ppw course)

Because carrying anything for self defence is illegal subject to very few exceptions. And the ones on your fac are for sporting purposes only.

Yes I know you cant carry, but I was talking about what should be allowed !! The reason we can't carry anything is because governments and police don't trust us !

PPW tickets don't cause problems in a those (few) EU countries and U.S. states that allow it

[joe]

Breacher:

Apparently it is very hard to get a gun permit in Israel. Never mind training as a civilian.

Seems the rules are being relaxed and those already with a gun are being encouaged to carry it .

Sixshsot, calibre is not so important as shot placement. Make enough holes - even with a .22 - and you'll get a result. A lot depends on the MOTIVATION of the aggressor too.

A .22 will do the business - just look at how many stone throwers the Israelis are stopping with it.

Most suicide bombers / stabbers are tanked up on medication so .22 might not work so well.

It be quite honest i don't think any pistol round is really going be effective in that situation
Also stopping power is a myth

[GeeRam]

All Israeli's over the age of 18 are subject to conscription, so there are plenty of trained people in Israel - and their training is excellent by all accounts, too.

Six months ago, I was sat opposite a rather attractive lady of Israeli origin for a while, and it was clear she knew what she was taking about when it came to firearms as a result of her conscription training.....very distracting on both counts

[GeeRam]

I once had a conversation with an ex police sniper about the use of PPK's and the withdrawal after failing to fire when that bodyguard's failed during the Princess Anne kidnapping attempt.

Jim Beaton GC CVO.
I remember meeting him once back in the late 70's when I was a teenager, as my late father knew Jim quite well.

[Chuck]

Joe:

We should have same policy here ! If I'm certified to hold firearms at home and carry them in my car with 200 rounds to the range then I can be trusted to have one on my person for protection (subject to a ppw course)

Well err NO, I'd rather it was subject to proper ongoing training, a CWW or whatever course is a beginners class and teaches squat really.. It's the start of a person's training, not the end. Being a competent target shooter is a help but it's a lot different from this. You don't become a Karate black belt after one session do you?

It be quite honest i don't think any pistol round is really going be effective in that situation. Also stopping power is a myth

In some respects YES, a pistol round is nowhere near as good as a rifled slug for example..."Stopping" power is a long running debate but not a myth in general terms..example: What would you rather be shot with? A .22RF or a .45ACP....there's your answer. Two quick hits centre mass with a .45 JHP and a bad person will in most cases stop their nonsense.

Shot placement and being able to carry out a failure to stop follow up is part of the equation. Someone hyped-up on man made drugs or adrenalin and seriously intent on causing your early demise may take some stopping whereas a similar shot on a sad little ned wanting your wallet or a FUBAR school shooter will probably have the desired effect...cessation of threat.

Some people have died after receiving a small calibre non lethal injury because they thought they would die, they convinced themselves they would die, such is the power of the movies. Some people have survived multiple large calibre wounds in all sorts of places because they refused to die.

geeram:

Six months ago, I was sat opposite a rather attractive lady of Israeli origin for a while, and it was clear she knew what she was taking about when it came to firearms as a result of her conscription training.....very distracting on both counts

Sounds kinda hot to me

PPK, good enough for James Bond..and only ever issued with ONE magazine!

[GeeRam]

geeram:

Six months ago, I was sat opposite a rather attractive lady of Israeli origin for a while, and it was clear she knew what she was taking about when it came to firearms as a result of her conscription training.....very distracting on both counts

Sounds kinda hot to me

She was, very .....it was a very distracting 3-4 months at work...... pity she was attached

[ordnance]

I take it those were PPK clones made by some other brand ? As Walter only made true PPKs in 380 or 32 ???

Not sure this is all i can find out.

L66A1s fall in the 41693 to 45088 serial number range. They bear no British proof marks, or any other marks of British issue. Unlike commercial Walthers (see below), they were not proofed at Ulm and lack a date code and "antler" stamp. Instead, they were proofed at the West German military proofhouse at Koblenz.

The L66A1 was retired in the 1980s. In a shockingly sensible move by modern standards, the British decided to sell these surplus pistols on the commercial market. Most wound up in Europe, but about 1500 were imported by Interarms in the mid-1990s. They were sold with two magazines and a non-matching box. In the case of the box, it's clear that someone--the British, Frankonia (the German distributor who got the pistols to Interarms), or Interarms itself--had a pile of pistols and a pile of boxes and didn't bother to match them up.