section 58 converted to live fire and it's legality

[the running man]

Mr d I understand what and where your coming from....

I'm after a sec 58 and was just trying to look for pitfalls.....I think I mite just buy a sec 1 that's already been proofed commercially....can't go wrong then....

[MrD]

I'm after a sec 58 and was just trying to look for pitfalls.....I think I mite just buy a sec 1 that's already been proofed commercially....can't go wrong then....

I was lucky to get my MH from a dealer who had actually shot it, therefore I trusted it wouldn't blow up in my face. However, I thoroughly check the breech block, securing pin and other screws when cleaning to check for any changes. I also check my 303s periodically, as I have a friend whose bolt lug parted company from the bolt on a No4 after firing. Luckily the only damage was the rifle becoming scrap.

Best bet is to buy from a trusted source (if there is such an animal). From what I was told when I was buying, they are only Sec 1 when on someone's FAC and are subsequently sold as Sec 58 which makes shipping easier. Make sure it has been thoroughly checked as to its suitability to live-fire. I suppose you could submit it to a proof house if you really wanted to make sure.

Donald

[FredB]

19th Century proof marks are still legal. Shotguns are slightly different as the tubes start off thin and get thinner with use. Being smooth bores they are easily measured and there are dimensional standards to adhere to.
I have a 310, a 300 Sherwood, three muzzle loaders, a 360 no 5, two 8.15 x 46r, a Mauser 71 / 84 and I have just taken a .320 long off ticket and replaced it with a 38-40 Remington Hepburn. Over the years, I have shot many other obsolete calibres----this is what I mostly do---start with a neglected gun, restore it and shoot it competitively.
Fred

[Robert303]

If we are talking about the condition of the firearm as opposed to the legality then it's a completely different ball game. You can go wrong with a firearm that has been subject to Commercial Proof as you can have as much regulation as you like, but idiots will still blow up fireams by confusing Black powder with Nitro Loads. By using the wrong propellant / bullet weights, by chasing some maximum velocity target they have instead of accuracy. By failing to consider the age of the firearm and the condition it is in. PROOF is a 'One Off Test' not some 'Annual MOT' much as the proof houses would like it to be. A lightly used firearm proofed 50 years ago is probably better / safer that a heavily used / abused one proofed 5 years ago.
As to a collection of rifles / firearms in the same calibre some to shoot and some not to shoot then the ones to be shot have to be on an FAC. There is NO 'Once a year Test Fire Exemption' or any other 'Get Out' unless , by my understanding, you are an RFD firing for Test Purposes. In todays climate do not take the chance, you could have your FAC revoked, you could be prosecuted and even with a relatively light suspended sentence become a 'Prohibited Person' under Sec 21 of the FA Act as amended which would mean that you can have NO firearms or Antique fireams in your possession.

There are Police / Home Office groups such as NABIS and ACPO who want to register Antique firearms and this will have to be fought. Do not give them 'ammunition' to support their arguments. Dealers cannot sell an item as a Sec 58 if they have ANY reason to believe you are going to shoot it 'Off Ticket' and why should one moaning whining shooter / collector put the dealers livliehood and LIBERTY at risk.

One thing to remember as a shooter it is safer, and causes less trouble with the law, if you use your brain and stop and THINK before 'Taking a chance' acting on 'My mate down the pub said it was OK'. 'That load on the net gave a great velocity' OR heard on my range from a new shooter 'Wow how do I get a muzzle flash like that?'

[FredB]

Good summary, Robert. It is best to remember that there is no such thing as "obsolete ammunition". If you have a single live round for a section 58 gun, you are liable to be given a prison sentence, unless of course you have added it to your FAC.
It is worth pointing out to the uninformed, that the recent scaremongering in the media about criminals using antique guns has always quoted examples of ww1 Webleys, Lugers etc----guns which are not section 58 but are prohibited weapons under current legislation.
Fred

[huntervixen]

As a side point to this, it is always a good idea to have a Sec58 piece carefully checked by a gunsmith for if you intend to add it to sec1 and shoot it.

[nunhead]

Strictly speaking a s.58 is STILL a legal firearm for which the posessor is claiming the EXEMPTION from certification because it is a Curio or Ornament. Possession of suitable ammunition implies that it's not held as such ...... it really IS then "off ticket" (illegally held ) rather than "NOT REQUIRING CERTIFICATION " ... the preferred correct term.

Proof Marks are part of a separate but linked type of legislation, probably one of the FIRST consumer protection laws.

A firearm can move on or off an FAC or RED register according to circumstances, although that might be difficult for some Firearm Licensing Departments to understand!

[bnz41]

We bought a .310 cadet some years ago at one of the Bisley arms fairs, with the idea would be nice to shoot. Bought from a well known dealer lives just outside Bisley gates. Anyway gave it a good look over no recent proof marks, so as it was in such good order bought it and later had it checked by our local gunsmith who reported perfect shootable condition. We then had to wait for a variation added to our certs so no problem. Bought reloading items at the same fair....

[Robert303]

bnz41. Well done on getting the 310 cadet. Lovely rifles. When you bought it the dealer, who I know, was in the clear. The minute you bought the reloading items you were technically breaking the law as your intention was to shoot the rifle and you had the evidence of that intent on you. You should have waited until you had your variation before buying the items. This might sound a bit 'nit picking' but you would have been an easy target for any plod looking for an easy result.

[Sim G]

bnz41. Well done on getting the 310 cadet. Lovely rifles. When you bought it the dealer, who I know, was in the clear. The minute you bought the reloading items you were technically breaking the law as your intention was to shoot the rifle and you had the evidence of that intent on you. You should have waited until you had your variation before buying the items. This might sound a bit 'nit picking' but you would have been an easy target for any plod looking for an easy result.

No, that is not so. Going by your thinking, as Neil said, "We bought a .310 cadet some years ago at one of the Bisley arms fairs, with the idea would be nice to shoot", the second he bought the rifle he would have acquired a s1 firearm, so broke the law. Likewise, the dealer sold a s1 firearm to someone without a certificate and also broke the law...

Neither s58(2) nor the guidance point to an offence being committed when reloading components are present with an Antique or Curio. The guidance does say that possession of ammunition for a curio, or blank ammunition suitable for that firearm, MAY show an intent that the firearm was possessed for other than s58(2). But, as ammunition is not granted status under s58(2), a strict liability offence of possession of s1 ammunition is already committed, curio status is immaterial. However, apart from the primers which require proof of FAC at point of purchase, all other components of ammunition are unrestricted and can be owned at will. No other offence could be charged.