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You are correct there is nothing in the firearms acts, indeed there is no such thing as an LBR, there are "small firearms ". The guidance is not a statuary instrument but is used by many as if it is. Our club to be safe has a notice saying that anyone handling a S1 shotgun will be ejected from the range.

Home office " guidance " is just that --it's advice , not law . It's guidance for police officers who always put their own interpretations on the law . I have argued successfully against these panderings by FEOs and departments re. some " new" rule - if it ain't law it ain't nothing.

My 'Ammunition Collection' section on my FAC specifies Sec 5(1A) (D) Igniting 5(1A) (E) Armour piercing 5(1A) (E) Expanding and 5(1A) (G) Expanding projectiles with no upper limit on the calibre of the Section 1 ammo. It used to be 20mm but the Police seem to have just 'Dropped' that. Whether it was deliberate or an error I do not know. I have had no contact from my Police Force.

Sorry this is off-topic, but I can't help but ask - Is your avatar Dengar?

spikedueller wrote:You are correct there is nothing in the firearms acts, indeed there is no such thing as an LBR, there are "small firearms ". The guidance is not a statuary instrument but is used by many as if it is. Our club to be safe has a notice saying that anyone handling a S1 shotgun will be ejected from the range.

Re avatar, showing my age I had to look up Dengar but no it's not, its an image I saw on the forgotten weapons site, he's armed with a mauser broomhandle and what appear to be 8*56 rounds in stripper clips in his belt and a very stern stare...

Robert 303 is lucky to have his upper limit dropped, my colleague initially had his upto 120mm but then it was changed to 2.7-30mm and that seems to be the standard in Hampshire.
Other collectors have not been so lucky in other areas, being allowed single inert exmples of AP, Incendiary and expanding in each calibre.

Thanks!

nickb834 wrote:
Pretty sure there's nothing in the legislation as regards LBR's / LBP's and S1 shotguns being cert holder only (I might be wrong regards S1 shotgun) but the prevailing opinion of the FEO's is that you can't use anyone elses and they can't be club guns - althought Sportsmans association had a fight regards LBP's (A buckmark IIRC) as a club gun and won that fight.

Its because they aren't mentioned in the Firearms Acts that makes them an issue, rather than the other way around. If they were mentioned in the legislation it would mean that the sections/caveats in the acts that permit the lending/borrowing/club ownership of firearms could be used for S1 shtoguns and LBF's too. Firearms legislation works the opposite way to normal UK law, i.e. In normal circumstances everything is permitted unless its specifically 'banned', whereas because of the firearm acts all gun ownership is 'prohibited' unless its specifically exempted by part of the act. Or at least thats my understanding of it!

spikedueller wrote:You are correct there is nothing in the firearms acts, indeed there is no such thing as an LBR, there are "small firearms ". The guidance is not a statuary instrument but is used by many as if it is. Our club to be safe has a notice saying that anyone handling a S1 shotgun will be ejected from the range.

Even their own?! I've heard of clubs that aren't keen on proper, sorry, FAC shotguns but thats a bit strong!

Blackstuff wrote:

nickb834 wrote:
Pretty sure there's nothing in the legislation as regards LBR's / LBP's and S1 shotguns being cert holder only (I might be wrong regards S1 shotgun) but the prevailing opinion of the FEO's is that you can't use anyone elses and they can't be club guns - althought Sportsmans association had a fight regards LBP's (A buckmark IIRC) as a club gun and won that fight.

Its because they aren't mentioned in the Firearms Acts that makes them an issue, rather than the other way around. If they were mentioned in the legislation it would mean that the sections/caveats in the acts that permit the lending/borrowing/club ownership of firearms could be used for S1 shtoguns and LBF's too. Firearms legislation works the opposite way to normal UK law, i.e. In normal circumstances everything is permitted unless its specifically 'banned', whereas because of the firearm acts all gun ownership is 'prohibited' unless its specifically exempted by part of the act. Or at least thats my understanding of it!

spikedueller wrote:You are correct there is nothing in the firearms acts, indeed there is no such thing as an LBR, there are "small firearms ". The guidance is not a statuary instrument but is used by many as if it is. Our club to be safe has a notice saying that anyone handling a S1 shotgun will be ejected from the range.

Even their own?! I've heard of clubs that aren't keen on proper, sorry, FAC shotguns but thats a bit strong!

The issue is not the Firearms act. It is down to the wording on an individual clubs Home office approval. Breach those conditions and lose your club.
The approval states the type of firearms permitted to be used by that club.

While i'm sure the clubs own certificate plays a part, the issue is definitely with the act not mentioning S1 shotguns/LBF's*. Because they are not mentioned i.e. they aren't rifles, shotguns** or muzzle loading pistols (the only firearm types specified in the legislation), they cannot enjoy the exemptions given by the various sections of the acts relating to other people using them or them being used as a club gun. e.g. The 'estate rifle' exemption provided by Section 16 of the 1988 Act;

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/45/section/16

Because the section specifically states 'rifle' this exemption cannot be used for a S1 shotgun or LBF as neither of them are rifles by definition of the act. If the word was changed to 'firearm' instead this shouldn't be an issue, providing the FEO in question wasn't being a d**khead.

*I use the term Long Barrelled Firearm (LBF) to cover LBR's and LBP's to save having to type both out/someone thinking i mean it only applies to one or the other

**a S1 shotgun, isn't a shotgun by the definition in the acts simply because of magazine capacity

spikedueller wrote:A fellow cartridge collector has just informed me that Hampshire Police have sent him an email saying all incendiary ammuntion and rounds exceeding 19.1mm are now banned and we must surrender them.

We both have the correct variations to posses these and I cannot find anything on their website or the ECRA, BASC, BCON or any changes in the last Guidance (not law) dated November 2014 to the police.

Anyone else had an email?

Nope, that was what was on my collecting slot as the upper limit for Ball/Expanding and AP

Just a thought but why not contact them and ask.

Otherwise all you will get is a thread full of third party speculation and barrack room law.....a fat lot of use when you are trying to explain the live 30mm HEDP round you have stashed in the attic