Apologies if this has been covered before. I'm sure it must have been, but I can't find it...............
If a shooter at the range offers his mate a go of his rifle/pistol etc. and his mate accepts and fires a couple of rounds through said firearm, has any law been broken?
When I bought a rifle last year, I was able to take it and try it out before buying, and as there was an empty slot for it on my FAC, I assumed this was OK, but for half an hour or so, I could be deemed to have been in possession of an unauthorised firearm...............
Any legal types out there who can shed some light here, or maybe anyone who can guide me to any previous discussion on this subject?
As above really, rifle fine, LBR etc is not (black powder is though). I shot .223 and .308 yesterday and I don't even have an FAC, let alone a spare slot for each
As has been said above. I have an Autistic son who has not yet got his SGC or FAC, he has been shooting clay pigeon since 2006 (club has an exemption certificate), shoots with 2 full bore clubs (indoor & outdoor) using my rifles in various calibres and has had his NRA shooter certification card for the last 2 years.
There's room for all Gods creatures, next to the mash and gravy :)
Hauptman wrote:Is an LBR not a section 1 firearm, then?
Yes, but because they aren't a shotgun*, rifle or muzzle-loading pistol, which the legislation is written for they're 'grey area' firearms and so the rules about them have had to have been 'made up' by FLD's for them, basically because the 1988 and 1997 legislation was written way, way too quickly with little or no thought to it other than 'ban SLR's and handguns cos they're 'evil' :roll:
*a shotgun with a magazine capacity greater than 2 cartridges isn't a shotgun because of the wording of the 1988 firearms act so they are also 'grey area' firearms. Some FLD's say that noone other than the person with it listed on their FAC can use it and others say that if the person wanting to use one has a slot for one on their FAC, that they can use someone elses, basically making it up as they go along.
Getting all of this nonsense sorted out was one of the positive things that was recommended by ACPO for changes to firearms legislation following the Cumbria shootings but it all seems to be forgotten about now.
My view is that if an LBR, LBP or S1 shotgun was lent to a person who was not an RFD and did not have the relevant firearm on his FAC, and that was admitted in court, the prosecution would succeed.
The relevant bits of law are s1 Firearms Act 1968:
(1)Subject to any exemption under this Act, it is an offence for a person—
(a)to have in his possession, or to purchase or acquire, a firearm to which this section applies without holding a firearm certificate in force at the time, or otherwise than as authorised by such a certificate;
and S15 Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988:
(1)Subject to subsection (4) below, a member of a rifle club approved by the Secretary of State [F2or the Scottish Ministers (by virtue of provision made under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998)] may, without holding a firearm certificate, have in his possession a rifle and ammunition when engaged as a member of the club in connection with target shooting.
(4)The application of subsection (1) above to members of an approved rifle club may—
(a)be excluded in relation to the club, or
(b)be restricted to target shooting with specified types of rifle,
(11)This section applies in relation to a muzzle-loading pistol club and its members as it applies to a rifle club and its members with the substitution for any reference to a rifle of a reference to a muzzle-loading pistol.
With a side dish from S50 Firearms Act 1997 (referring to s45 of the 97 Act which is the one that created S15 of the 1988 Act in its current form): (3)Any reference in the 1968 Act to a person who is by virtue of that Act entitled to possess, purchase or acquire any weapon or ammunition without holding a certificate shall include a reference to a person who is so entitled by virtue of any provision of this Act.
All the above as amended.
It is quite clear from the above that a firearm may only be possessed if you either:
Have a FAC on which that firearm is entered as "possessed", or;
Are exempted under some provision of the 68, 88 or 97 Acts.
Now the exemption that nearly everyone is trying to use here is indeed the one at S15(1) of the 88 Act, which specifically authorises a member of a Home Office Approved club, when acting as such in connection with target shooting to possess a rifle without a Certificate. Since there are subsequent specific exemptions for muzzle-loading pistols, it follows that anything that is neither a rifle nor a muzzle-loading pistol is not exempted. Further, since a specific exemption was required for muzzle-loading pistols (which are usually rifled, no?) "rifle" does not have the meaning of "any gun with a rifled barrel". Such a view is reinforced by the fact the the words "rifled gun " do appear elsewhere in the Firearms Acts. Had "rifle" had the meaning of "rifled gun" that form would be unneccessary, and since it is a legal presumption that laws are not worded so as to be unnecessary, if follows that "rifle" has a narrower meaning, and since in legal interpretation words are presumed to have their ordinary meaning, my view is that LBRs and LBPs are not "rifles" within the meaning of S15 Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 as amended. Further, a S1 shotgun is definitely not a rifle (and if it was it would likely be a S5 weapon).
Therefore, my opinion is that the exemption at S15 cannot apply to these wider classes of firearms.
Now that is only my opinion, I'm not a lawyer and you aren't paying for this view so place what merit you like on it. But I will not be chancing my FAC or my freedom on some convoluted interpretation of the Acts.
Also, note the bit in bold above. The exemption does not apply to FAC holders, or adults, or any class of people other than that defined. Think about the limitation of that.
so they are also 'grey area' firearms. Some FLD's say that noone other than the person with it listed on their FAC can use it and others say that if the person wanting to use one has a slot for one on their FAC, that they can use someone elses, basically making it up as they go along. 