Siege at Tottenham Court road

[Sim G]

And with a 20% cut in budgets across the board for the police where do you think the money will be spent in the future? Certainly not on new kit! Some forces are struggling to find the money for fuel, nevr mind a "personal issue" pistol and carbine for the "few".....

It's not right and there are lots of folks not happy happy about it. But neither the government nor the public want to pay for it....

[Jenks]

Littlejohns take on it...


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... Green.html


Jenks

[Chuck]

Can't find anything to disagree with in that, completely OTT for the sake of it..and sooner or later someone will get hurt for no reason.

As for the costs....must be phenomenal.

[Sandgroper]

Can't find anything to disagree with in that, completely OTT for the sake of it..and sooner or later someone will get hurt for no reason.

As for the costs....must be phenomenal.

If this OTT, why is the call to attack civilians and reduce their homes to rubble, fair and proportionate?

It could have just as easily been a lone fanatic wanting to make a statement.

To my mind, better overkill, than mass kill.

[Chuck]

I think you know the answer to that one SG. :lol: :lol:

[Sandgroper]

I think you know the answer to that one SG. :lol: :lol:

It depends on your point of view, Chuck!

[Porcupine]

I know a lot of US cops have the issue of a 'shift gun' that they don't get to take home with them so the modifications they can do are limited. Sights are a bit of a no-go because of zeroing but you can still add grips, lights, different mags etc and remove them at the end of your shift. Could be policy does not allow it here.

Relevant to this thread, this story from a few days ago of two NYPD cops who cornered a man (just one) suspected of shooting his mother and sister, the latter fatally. He was armed with a .22 caliber revolver and fired at the officers, who responded by firing 84 rounds (39 and 45 each) of 9mm from their Glock 19 handguns at a range of around 23 yards. That's two mag changes each (plus the one in the gun) and one officer had only a single round left until he was completely out. The suspect was hit 14 times (22% accuracy) and survived. Ammunition used was Speer Gold Dot, 124-grain which is one of if not the most widely used hollow point bullets for LE and defensive use. The scene was an off-ramp, the two officers taking cover behind their patrol car and the suspect on the side walk. Behind where the suspect was located was a tall embankment so they happened to have an ideal back stop.

Of course you may say this was just poor shooting on the part of the cops, and that may be true. Perhaps there is even an issue with their ammo or guns (keyholing?). But fundamentally it is very difficult to hit someone in a high stress situation who isn't standing still or is popping in and out of cover, when you yourself are trying to keep moving and/or using cover meaning your sight picture may be poor or non-existent. And you can't rely on a single or even a small number of rounds putting him on his ass. Even if they had 100% accuracy, 14 rounds is more ammo than a lot of handguns hold in a single magazine, and more than some British cops carry in their carbines.

[honsu]

I have read the artical a few times his views come across as very out dated IE:the bit on the IRA when the IRA planed an attack they always planed an escape rout or used timed delays on there bombs were as a muslim fanatic for the most part plan to take as many people with them as they can and die in the proses.

Also what use is an armed cop with a 10 round mag if the worst happend and we have a Mumbi style attack in the UK.As it will be up to the armed police to at least hold any attacker at bay untill the Army can mobilize the SAS which can take a while if you think about it as they first need orders to respond from the COBRA commite then they need to be armed and transpoted to the taget area.Also dont forget it is well repoted the SAS are well under maned these days.

This guy also critasizes the number of police and the amount of gear they have but I bet he would be one of the first to moan if the Police had turned up under maned and armed and the s*** hit the fan.

Also it might not be a police officer in the photo.

Also the old saying comes in to play hear: I'd rather have it and not need it than not have it and need it.



:flag5:

[M99]

I have read the artical a few times his views come across as very out dated IE:the bit on the IRA when the IRA planed an attack they always planed an escape rout or used timed delays on there bombs were as a muslim fanatic for the most part plan to take as many people with them as they can and die in the proses.

Also what use is an armed cop with a 10 round mag if the worst happend and we have a Mumbi style attack in the UK.As it will be up to the armed police to at least hold any attacker at bay untill the Army can mobilize the SAS which can take a while if you think about it as they first need orders to respond from the COBRA commite then they need to be armed and transpoted to the taget area.Also dont forget it is well repoted the SAS are well under maned these days.

This guy also critasizes the number of police and the amount of gear they have but I bet he would be one of the first to moan if the Police had turned up under maned and armed and the s*** hit the fan.

Also it might not be a police officer in the photo.

Does that not contradict what you are saying? - I'll tell you now for free - there is always a SF presence in the capital. There has been since the Libyan Embassy. They are deployed with alarming frequency and it does NOT need COBRA authorisation.

[Chuck]

porcupine, I'd love to read the officers report on that story about the two cops.

Distance is your friend if you can use it..I am wondering about a .22 revolver, max how many rounds can they hold and the amount of shots fired at the bad guy..did they not have a shotgun in the car??? how many shots did the bad guy fire, was he behind cover also, did he need to relaod etc..And what about back up? Did they REALLY need to expend all that ammo whilst waiting for help?? like I said, would be good to see some details..or maybe their car video??

I note what you say about moving targets..not that easy. Part of the problem may be the constraints put on training due to "safety" factors.. I was reading the range rules for a place we want to use, we can get access the police range. Standing orders are north - south shooting only, no lateral shooting even though the berms can well take pistol rounds and the range itself is way back from Joe public. also no cars ON the range, a bit hard to get folks trained to shoot using them as cover/concealment if no cars allowed. We can do some lateral thinking and get round it a bit. The point I am making is that just maybe the training areas - and trainers - need to allow more realistic scenarios.

Maybe I am wrong here?

At any rate it has just opened up an idea for another course and content for us to offer.