Understanding that the #7 bayonet was made for the Mk5 Sten but would fit the #4 rifle, was it ever issued and used for the #4? It seems that when fixed to the #4 rifle and actually used for sticking someone instead of opening ration cans it would be somewhat unsupported and in danger of getting the swivel attachment bent out of alignment. We used to be able to buy these for under $10 in the army surplus stored when I was kid, now depending on condition and maker they go from $75 to over $100.
I picked this sling up at a gun show for $5 and wondered why it was kind of funky. It was explained to me that it is a WW2 emergency production sling with a strip of rubber sewn between cloth. Mine is still nice and flexible but I was told that the rubber usually stiffens up until it is like a wood yardstick. Are they common in the UK?
Apparently Mk7 bayonets were extensively used on No4s in the Korean War. One veteran (IIRC KOSB) I spoke to even said that they started out with normal spikes for both the Stens and the No4s, but that when it was realised that bayonet fighting was going to be common (ie due to the Chinese human wave attacks), there was a scramble to issue bladed bayonets - which had a much more instantaneous stopping effect. He thought that they had a mix of Mk7 and some Mk9.
Rearlugs wrote:Apparently Mk7 bayonets were extensively used on No4s in the Korean War. One veteran (IIRC KOSB) I spoke to even said that they started out with normal spikes for both the Stens and the No4s, but that when it was realised that bayonet fighting was going to be common (ie due to the Chinese human wave attacks), there was a scramble to issue bladed bayonets - which had a much more instantaneous stopping effect. He thought that they had a mix of Mk7 and some Mk9.
Great information! I was told the spike bayonet was designed specifically to penetrate German army greatcoats which the blade of the 1907 bayonet sometimes had trouble doing. Anyone heard this before and any truth to it?
Some quotes "The Spirit of the Pike by Graham Priest" on the No4 bayonet
Building on previous tests from 1920 which stated a need for "... the adoption of a much shorter stiffer and consequently stronger bayonet ... (to improve) ... efficiency, morale, handiness for · shooting and fighting at close quarters"
The bayonet will be workmanlike in appearance and it is not thought that it will detract from the spectacular effect of troops marching with fixed bayonets on ceremonial occasions." Such was the theory! Analysis of First World War experience and contemporary tests with uniform clad sheep carcasses, to simulate Russian troops in winter dress, led to the production of sample
bayonets for examination on 16th January 1925.
These bayonets were quadrangular bladed socket bayonets, with a weight of six and three-quarters ounces (178 g) and a knurled plunger catch located in the rear of the shank. The title of this weapon was altered to "No.l MKII" in 1926, when the "Pattern '26" was discarded. The new bayonet used some of the experience gleaned from the French mle. 1886 (Lebel), Russian Model 1891 Mosin-Nagant and Swiss Ord. 1892.
So basically that's how the bayonet developed from the P1907 'blade' to the No4 cruciform and latterly 'plain' spike. I would reckon a squaddie with his SMLE and P1907 would manage to get it through a greatcoat. The only weapon from WW2 which I have read about being designed specifically to penetrate enemy clothing/equipment was the F/S fighting knife.
Skennerton states that "the No7 was not widely issued with the No4 rifle", and attributes this to the imminent issue of the No9 which was produced before the Korean War. From other sources, I have read of the No7 going to Guards Regts or being reserved for ceremonial use. I have seen a fair few polished 'parade' ones and never any normal used/abused.
I suppose the only accurate way would be to look through Korean War images, and try and see what the troops had with them.
Some quotes "The Spirit of the Pike by Graham Priest" on the No4 bayonet
Building on previous tests from 1920 which stated a need for "... the adoption of a much shorter stiffer and consequently stronger bayonet ... (to improve) ... efficiency, morale, handiness for · shooting and fighting at close quarters"
The bayonet will be workmanlike in appearance and it is not thought that it will detract from the spectacular effect of troops marching with fixed bayonets on ceremonial occasions." Such was the theory! Analysis of First World War experience and contemporary tests with uniform clad sheep carcasses, to simulate Russian troops in winter dress, led to the production of sample
bayonets for examination on 16th January 1925.
These bayonets were quadrangular bladed socket bayonets, with a weight of six and three-quarters ounces (178 g) and a knurled plunger catch located in the rear of the shank. The title of this weapon was altered to "No.l MKII" in 1926, when the "Pattern '26" was discarded. The new bayonet used some of the experience gleaned from the French mle. 1886 (Lebel), Russian Model 1891 Mosin-Nagant and Swiss Ord. 1892.
So basically that's how the bayonet developed from the P1907 'blade' to the No4 cruciform and latterly 'plain' spike. I would reckon a squaddie with his SMLE and P1907 would manage to get it through a greatcoat. The only weapon from WW2 which I have read about being designed specifically to penetrate enemy clothing/equipment was the F/S fighting knife.
Skennerton states that "the No7 was not widely issued with the No4 rifle", and attributes this to the imminent issue of the No9 which was produced before the Korean War. From other sources, I have read of the No7 going to Guards Regts or being reserved for ceremonial use. I have seen a fair few polished 'parade' ones and never any normal used/abused.
I suppose the only accurate way would be to look through Korean War images, and try and see what the troops had with them.
Donald
Donald,
Perhaps the reference to Russian uniforms led to the story about it being designed to penetrate German overcoats. Interesting that it was being tested on Russian uniforms back in the 20s. I would hazard that bayonets in the 20th century saw much greater use as a tool for prying, digging, hammering, chopping and the like than as a weapon. The NVA seem to have been inclined to use them in Vietnam to stick folks with.
The British 29th Brigade (Royal Ulster Rifles, Royal Northumberland Fusiliers, the Gloucestershire Regiment, 8th Kings Royal Hussars and 45 field regiment of the RA to name the biggest units in the Brigade, also a Belgian battalion was attached and earned a good rep) saw much close quarters battle and the Royal Ulster Rifles frequently reported that the Chinese were awful in close quarters battle with poor reaction time, even though they were almost universally armed with SMGs. During the battle of the Imjin river at least 2 bayonet charges were mounted, and too great effect
MrD wrote:
I suppose the only accurate way would be to look through Korean War images, and try and see what the troops had with them.
Donald
There is one well-known photo (which of course I now cannot find) of a British night patrol waiting to go out. One of the interesting aspects is that several men are carrying Mk7 bayonets high up on the front of their webbing - apparently as fighting knives.
The squaddie's Swiss Army knife :lol: My father served throughout N Africa and Italy, carrying an SMLE. Although they used 'fixed-bayonets' to assault enemy positions, he told me he had never used it in anger on anything more lethal than a tin of bully-beef. He also told me it was excellent for stirring sand and petrol into 'porridge' for cooking.
@rearlugs
Funnily enough while 'having time on my hands at work' earlier, I looked through the IWM's Korean gallery. Couldn't find a picture that showed enough detail to see what the troops had bayonet-wise. Though strangely enough found a few with UK troops armed with Garands.
I've heard that several instances where the Royal Marines were working with the USMC they were often issued with Garands. I have also seen photos of members of the Hussars in 29th Brigade using M1 Carbines
