2nd class service

[Jenks]

I had a similar problem the last time I renewed.In spite of applying early. My certificates expired before i received a new grant/renewal . As far as i was concerned I was holding Firearms 'ILLEGALLY' I contacted my firearms department and asked what was my position. Don't worry was the reply. We will take no action against you. Fine said I, but what if I am stopped by Surrey police on my way to Bisley? Well they will ring us and we will say it's ok. I Rang Bisley and asked them if i would be OK to shoot there under the circumstances... Vis insurance They were unclear. So in frustration I wrote to the Chief constable of my county, copied to the the firearms dept. and the home office. I pointed out that through no fault of my own I was holding firearms illegally. I pointed out that in spite of their assurances, the county constabulary did not have the power to sanction my breaking of the law. One hour after sending my e-mail I had a return e-mail to the effect that I would be visited by an official of the firearms department. two (working) days later I had my certificates.

Jenks

[Sim G]

Well Sim G my Police Force have told me not to shoot outside my area...wonder why? She said that our Police force have instructions on how to deal with it and I note from elsewhere that the police car would return that my cert not current.

I hear what you say, but there will be a much bigger chance of getting stopped without a cert when the cuts really bite.

I was advised last week that they had just started processing those due 1 Aug...FFS...imagine the delay if they hadn't sent the little man out to check security etc???

Sooner or later someone will allege armed tresspass and I can see people without certs having a night in the cell...or perhaps a weekend.

The country is going down the tubes.

:|

They've told you not to shoot outside your area because they know it was their responsibility to renew your tickets on time or issue you with a S7 document. But, quite frankly, a S7 doc takes just as much to process and if they could do that instantly, they could do your FAC/SGC. I imagine the reason is so they don't get a snot-a-gram from an area commander of another force somewhere!

OK, you are not in physical possession of your tickets, but dou you actually "have" valid certs? I would argue yes. Your application for renewal was not turned down, nor have you had your certs revoked. They are just in the admin process of signing and printing. Do you not go shooting at the clubs outside of your area when your ticket is in for variation?

Likewise, if this really was such an issue, why do you still have your guns? Possession is an absolute offence. If using them is such as issue, them possession of them must be also......

Ostensibly you do have "valid" certs. Like I've said before, carry appropriate ID with an address. Club membership cards and membership cards of whatever organisation with you. If stopped and a PNC check does show expired, you have the simple explanation that your certs have been renewed and you are waiting for them to be sent to you. Making sure you mention delay is due to cut backs and every copper in the country will know where you are coming from!

And, even if you do get the "over zealous, jack booted nazi" so often eluded to on here, no custody sergeant worth his salt is ever going to authorise detention, never mind a charge!!

Along the same lines, when the photocard for your driving licence expires (surprising how many people don't know that it does!) Will you stop driving? No, because you know your licence hasn't been revoked and a new one is an "admin" process...

My certs are up for renewal in December. I'll make sure I'm maxed out on rimfire and primers before I send my tickets in, but it's guaranteed whilst they are away, I won't stop shooting, or travelling to shoot, with my guns.

[Sandgroper]

Rob,
You're a member of BASC, have you asked them for their opinion?

[Robin128]

My certs expired 31 Aug...I do not have a s1 or s2 cert...and that is the law.

I have nothing in writing from the Police to say that they are in process...nothing.

As I said...if something happens friday evening whilst out lamping ... I can expect cuffs and a weekend in the cells. Not really on, is it?

Legal pundits have argued the following elsewhere...

This is an entirely foreseeable problem. The police know exactly how many renewals they have to do each year (apart from the very small number who don't renew) so it's not difficult to plan as to when you will need extra staff. There is an increase in renewals every few years which is left over from the time when FAC's and SGC's lasted for three years so that is easy to plan for too.

The problems will come if, for instance, you get stopped by the police for any reason. Every FAC and SGC holder is flaged on the PNC and it will show that your cert has expired. What if the cop who has stopped you then to do? Is he just going to allow you to go on your way whilst being in unlawful possession of firearms? What happens if your house gets burgled or vehicle broken into and your guns go missing? The fact that you are in possession of illegal firearms is not going to be a good factor to chuck into the mix - can you imagine if the papers got hold of that fact?

What would a trial judge do in this circumstance. I doubt that he or she would stop a case on the basis that someone else has told you that it's okay to contravene a very serious part of the criminal law. He might give you an unconditional discharge but it's still a conviction and a firearms one at that! You could lose your job over it, you may never be able to travel to certain countries again, and you would always have to declare a convition for illegal firearms possession on your application and renewals. Would you fancy your chances of getting a job anywhere if you had to declare something like that?

There is nothing in section 7 to compel the police to issue a permit. It is entirely discretionary.

Police forces are not compelled to comply with Home Office Guidance. Para 1.6 states that "all forces should seek to comply"... However, Chief Officers are the ultimate authority . . . in their own force".

I'll be watching the letter box again tomorrow lunch time.

:|

[Robin128]

Rob,
You're a member of BASC, have you asked them for their opinion?

I gave it a few weeks given the effect the cuts were bound to have...then got a satisfactory response...but didn't bank on the Royal Mail also significantly adding to the delay. The 2nd class standard is 3 days after posting, including Saturdays...or to be precise, that's what they aim for. It's the Police that told me that the post can take 10 days to deliver ...they have had feedback from others wondering what had happened to their certs, after being told they had been sent.

No point in ringing BASC now, they wouldn't have got a better result than I did.

:|

[Sim G]

My certs expired 31 Aug...I do not have a s1 or s2 cert...and that is the law.

Well, if you believe that really is the be-all-and-end-all as far as your siutation is concerned, better get yourself down the police station in the morning, surrender your guns and hand yourself in!

Shame I'm not in S. Wales, with you "confession" to boot, looks like an easy body..... :55: :55: :lol:

[Robin128]

The law really is an ass....Sim G.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Jenks]

Robin..

For goodness sake, you sound seriously Pi$$ed off. time to chuck teddy out of the pram. start firing off the e-mails. what have you got to lose. if you are not prepared to make waves then those who are will get priority over you.You will get as you say, a second class service. One e-mail to your chief constable copied to the home office, head of your firearms dept. should do it. It worked for me.

Jenks

[Robin128]

Robin..

For goodness sake, you sound seriously Pi$$ed off. time to chuck teddy out of the pram. start firing off the e-mails. what have you got to lose. if you are not prepared to make waves then those who are will get priority over you.You will get as you say, a second class service. One e-mail to your chief constable copied to the home office, head of your firearms dept. should do it. It worked for me.

Jenks

Jenks...if you read my posts you will see that the cert was processed the day after I had a wee word.

Why make waves?...the Police are in trouble with the cuts...and the loss of £7m deposited in Icelandic banks...£4m into Heritable and £3m into Landsbanki.

It's Royal Mail that a turning a drama into a crisis.

[M99]

Robin..

For goodness sake, you sound seriously Pi$$ed off. time to chuck teddy out of the pram. start firing off the e-mails. what have you got to lose. if you are not prepared to make waves then those who are will get priority over you.You will get as you say, a second class service. One e-mail to your chief constable copied to the home office, head of your firearms dept. should do it. It worked for me.

Jenks

Jenks...if you read my posts you will see that the cert was processed the day after I had a wee word.

Why make waves?...the Police are in trouble with the cuts...and the loss of £7m deposited in Icelandic banks...£4m into Heritable and £3m into Landsbanki.

It's Royal Mail that a turning a drama into a crisis.

Robin,

I send a lot (and I mean a lot) of stuff by post - 2nd class 99% of the time gets there next day - I posted my mother a B'day card and forgot the stamp recently - it still got there next day!

The police mail gets "franked" not stamped - so my thoughts will be it has been processed - put in an envelope and sent to "the post room" for processing - which is why it is taking 10 days!

Mike