No.5 Carbine first use

[dave_303]

Recently I've seen a few RFDs advertise the No.5 carbine as first being used in Op Market Garden,
anyone know of the validity of this claim? I know production started around March/April 1944 and from my guess reading the serial number of surplusrifleforum around 14,000 had been made by the end of August 1944 (Market Garden starting 17th September so number produced from end of august till then wouldn't be hugely significant).

The numbers made would be enough to equip the 1st Airborne Division, but I've yet to see any photographic evidence of it, all the photos and film I've seen of Market Garden has shown the No.4 and Mk.VI Sten (with the odd Mk.II). Has anyone seen any accounts that state differently? The earliest photos I've seen of the No.5 in Europe in one with the Paras in Norway in 1945 and one with a Commando officer dated late 44/early 45.


(edit, on top of some excellent photos, there are plenty of Market Garden (no No.5s) and the picture of the Lt.Col from 48 Commando.
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewto ... 0&t=103371

[Meaty]

I cant find anything relating to Market Garden but did see this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I75-6BUO3ag, its reported to be Walcheren Island in Holland 1944. If all the footage is of the actual assault then @ 4:50 it certainly seems to support the no.5's use prior to being used in Norway in '45.

[lasbrisas]

I will be interested to see if there is any more info on this as I have just put a deposit on one, mine is a 1946 vintage.

[saddler]

Skennerton....Lee Enfield Story

Type approved August 44.
Declared obsolete 1947
Expected barrel life 6,000 rounds (half that of the No.4)

[GeeRam]

Many years ago, when involved with a few of the Arnhem veterans associations, this was a frequently asked question, and the No.5 was not on general issue to any unit for Market Garden that anyone was aware of, certainly no Arnhem veteran I ever spoke to can ever recall seeing anyone with a No.5.

[Rearlugs]

The No5 first appears in regular service with 6th Airborne Division during their liberation of Denmark and Norway, and then subsequently with the same divisional units in the Far East, and again post-war in Palestine.

Almost certainly what happened is that 6th Airborne Division were issued with the No5 during the regrouping and re-equipping phase after Op Varsity/ Op Plunder, the crossing of the Rhine (24th March 1945). The division was taken out of the line to be reconstituted, and it would be normal military practice to make any major equipment or organisation changes during this phase.

1st Airborne Division, which was used at Arnhem in September 1944, did not have the No5 at that time. The Division was so badly depleted by Market Garden that it was not used again until Op Doomsday, the liberation of Norway. Probably 1st had the No5 by this stage.

Hence the No5 probably had its first field issue in April 1945, and may or may not have been used in combat in the last couple of weeks of the European war. By that stage, of course, there was little resistance by the Germans in the northern parts of Germany that airborne Divisions were sent to occupy.

[GeeRam]

The No5 first appears in regular service with 6th Airborne Division during their liberation of Denmark and Norway, and then subsequently with the same divisional units in the Far East, and again post-war in Palestine.

By end of 1945, more than just 6th Airborne were equipped with the No5 in Palestine after the war. Two of my uncles were with the 1st Argyll's in Palestine, from end of 45, attached to the 6th AB as a Air Landing Battalion, and they also had No.5's. I actually have a photo of the two of them together with their No.5's taken in Palestine.
My late father was in Palestine from Jan 46 to Jan 47 with the Royal Engineer's and he too was issued with a No.5 for the duration of that tour. He personally loved the No.5, and much preferred it to the No.4.

[Rearlugs]

The No5 first appears in regular service with 6th Airborne Division during their liberation of Denmark and Norway, and then subsequently with the same divisional units in the Far East, and again post-war in Palestine.

By end of 1945, more than just 6th Airborne were equipped with the No5 in Palestine after the war. Two of my uncles were with the 1st Argyll's in Palestine, from end of 45, attached to the 6th AB as a Air Landing Battalion, and they also had No.5's. I actually have a photo of the two of them together with their No.5's taken in Palestine.
My late father was in Palestine from Jan 46 to Jan 47 with the Royal Engineer's and he too was issued with a No.5 for the duration of that tour. He personally loved the No.5, and much preferred it to the No.4.

When the rifle was issued to 6th Airborne Division, it would have been issued to all divisional troops - not just to "in-role" paratroops. Hence non-para infantry, which were designated and trained as glider or "air-landing", also received the No5, as did engineers, gunners, signallers, loggies, and all other divisional elements.

1st Argylls became an air-landing battalion of 6th Airborne Division from 1st October 1945. Hence they probably re-equipped and received their No5s in Britain, before they left for Palestine in November 1945. Your uncles would have been badged as 6th AB Div during their time in Palestine.

At the moment, as far as i am aware, there has been no other record of another Division receiving No5s prior to the end of the war (by which i mean the Japanese surrender). 6th Airborne appears to have used the rifle between March 1945 (north Germany) and 1948 (Palestine). After this date, the rifle seems to have been withdrawn until the Malayan Emergency had been going a few years.

[HALODIN]

I can't find any proof they were in use pre Norway. Interesting thread.

[GeeRam]

1st Argylls became an air-landing battalion of 6th Airborne Division from 1st October 1945. Hence they probably re-equipped and received their No5s in Britain, before they left for Palestine in November 1945. Your uncles would have been badged as 6th AB Div during their time in Palestine.

Yes, they did get issued their No.5's in UK....don't know if they were badged as 6th AB, as they are in KD's so no unit insignia. Will ask my Uncle Bill when I see him on a trip up to Scotland next month, although, I don't know if he'll remember now, as he's now in his early 90's.

This is them in 1946 in Palestine with their No.5's.




My Dad also got issued his No.5 in the UK after returning to the UK from Germany just after New Year 1946, got a weeks leave, before drawing new kit, and shipping out on a troopship to Palestine for the next 12 months.