Subsonic for AW

[dromia]

I'm with you DW58 - I only use lead bullets for low velocity cartridges in my Marlin. For anything at high velocities in target rifles I still only use FMJ. If lead is so much better than anything else, and given it is cheaper, one might question why, to the best of my knowledge, no major ammunition manufacturer offers full bore rifle ammunition loaded with lead bullets, or the military for that matter. Jacketed bullets were a major development from lead bullets 150 years or so ago, so was that a backward step?

I have now sourced some Lapua B416 200grain bullets and IMR Trail Boss, so looks all set for some fun load development.

What a charmingly uninformed assumption

With the introduction of metallic cartridges it was the military who both drove firearm and ammunition development. From a military perspective a jacketed bullet is more attractive than a bare lead one, logistically they are less likely to be damaged in store/transit, also at the time bolt action and automatic firearms were coming on line and the jacketed bullet with copper sheath withstood better the vagrancies of being loaded in these types firearms so for military usage jacketed were better, but not necessarily because they shot better. Also jacketed bullets are more tolerant of sloppy barrels being able to be fired undersized. Which lead won't do without fouling. Bare lead bullets for military use were outlawed by the Hague convention limiting the use of expanding ammunition in war.

As the military market was and still is the biggest buyer of ammunition the manufacturers will invest in supplying them first, also civilian shooting was linked to and driven by the military and our target shooting disciplines came from this relationship. I fact the predecessor of todays TR was shot with the military firearm and calibre of the day right up until the adoption of the SLR, the use of the 7.62 is still there in TR today so that is the main driver for the propensity of jacketed.

Today in the UK as civilian shooters we are free from these limitations, no automatic full bore guns allowed, no battlefield scenarios for us, not even self defence. Sso we have the liberating luxury of being freed from thase norms and actually using what is best rather than what is the most common.

[ColinR]

[/quote]What a charmingly uninformed assumption[quote][/quote]

I get the impression we are all uninformed when it comes to your opinions, charmingly or otherwise. Perhaps you should share your opinions with the multitude of bullet manufacturers producing a whole variety of jacketed bullets unhindered by military or other constraints, as I guess they have missed the point too.

[dromia]

I trust the time I took to give an explanation is seen as a little more that pure opinion but then you obviously only see and here what suits you.

Manufacturers haven't missed any point, the vast majority of shooters are quiet happy like yourself using what you know and happily paying through the nose for the privilege so why should they change?

Businesses are only there to make a profit not provide what is best for the customer, just look at the tobacco and alcohol industries, not to mention the arms industry which exists on the back of human conflict.

What a charmingly naive view you have.

[ColinR]

What a charmingly naive view you have.

And what a charmingly bigoted view you have - I'm sure we still have the right to differ!

[tackb]

Copper jackets allowed higher velocitys , an attractive quality for military small arms.

I use a 180g fbrn over either trailboss or 7g of unique , standard cases with un touched primer hole.

As velocity increases so does stability due to rotation , test with your mod off and check for bullet yaw before trying with your mod on.

In my subsonic testing when I used lead I found I needed to clean before using jacketed again or it took a while for accuracy to return , using jacketed exclusively stopped that problem.

[dromia]

What a charmingly naive view you have.

And what a charmingly bigoted view you have - I'm sure we still have the right to differ!

You are the one that is bigoted against lead, but it is your loss. I have nothing against jacketed bullets, for me lead gives better results at less cost with more satisfaction. I try and help and explain and get damned for it. Still if you wish to revel in your ignorance then that is your choice.

A reasoned argument is obviously lost on narrow minds like yours but good luck with your subsonic loads whatever you choose to use.

[dromia]

Copper jackets allowed higher velocitys , an attractive quality for military small arms.

Not quiet true, lead allows high velocities too but as stated in my previous posts jacketed is more forgiving about dimensions along with the other reasons stated jacketed was more suited to military applications.

Funny how the lead bullets foul story perpetrates.

[tackb]

Jacketed can be driven faster than lead , more streamlined bullets are available in jackets increasing the effective range of section weapons like machine guns. Otherwise lead would still be in use.

In MY rifle lead gave fouling issues which I solved by changing to jackets , there may have been another solution but I doubt they would have been as simple ?

[dromia]

As I have explained at some length it was not quiet as simple as that there were other military benefits from using jacketed as well.

Streamlined bullets are available in lead and shoot very well at 2000+ fps but no two ways about it a jacketed bullet is more robust and more tolerant for military purposes however we as civilian shooters in the UK are not restricted by these requirements then lead bullets give us far more options.

Lead bullets only give lead fouling if improperly used, copper jacketed bullets always gives copper fouling.

If you were already set up for making lead bullets then getting them to shoot at high velocity without leading would have been simple too, just requiring a little knowledge on the subject.

This thread is about subsonic loads however and using lead bullets to achieve that is simple enough with off the shelf cast bullets.

[tackb]

True enough , there is nothing in it between lead and jacketed for subsonic ,fouling aside.

2000fps is not high velocity, 2500fps + is , lead is at it's limit up there needing specialist alloys and loading techniques.

I have a 45/120 which would not shoot lead no matter what I tried , eventually somebody suggested I try paper patching , what a fag ! So I tried a jacketed bullet straight on top of 110g of black powder , no lube no over-powder wads or lube discs blah blah , eureka ! A simple load that worked !