RFD transfers: how do they work?

[BamBam]

That's a good question and they said that it was only for RFD to RFD sales between private folk.

GMP also told me that I could sell as many in one month, still post off each transfer form, but within 30 days I could still get my one for ones for each slot sold.

There's no rhyme or reason I can fathom.

[Mattnall]

My local RFD told me this the other day:

GMP have told them that they cannot allow the same firearm to appear on 2 FACs. So in the event that I sell and want to transfer it via RFD, I need to lodge it with them and then complete a transfer form. Only when I receive my FAC back can the rifle travel to the RFD nominated by the new owner, they enter it onto his license like a direct sale. The local RFD charges £40 for this service, plus carriage.

That is total rubbish. I have a rifle and a couple of shotguns that are on more than one FAC/SGC. In fact the rifle is on the three FACs. That way the anyone of us can use them without any problem or fuss.

As for informing them every time you sell a firearm, well that's what we have been doing for years, you just don't have to send your FAC back unless you want the slot re-issued.

This may come about from a cock-up (or similar) I had with a transaction. I sold a rifle to someone in GMP area and filled out FAC and informed their licensing dept.
About a month later I get a call from another force about this rifle that had appeared in their system as being acquired from a third party (not me) but is showing up on FLMS as belonging to me. Why hadn't I informed them of the transaction?
Well GMP took so long to process the transaction information from myself and the middle owner that it was sold on before the database had been updated.


ETA: Not sure if someone is getting confused with the following.
The procedure for private (distance) selling of firearms has been tightened up in the new guidance (still not the law though, but don't follw it at your peril).
If a private sale, the buyer needs to send his FAC to the seller who will fill in the table as appropriate. The FAC is then posted back to the new owner.
The firearm is then sent to the new owner's nominated RFD who will receive it chack the details are on the new owner's FAC and hand it over to him.
The buyer and the seller have to inform the licensing departments of the transaction, not the RFD.

[BamBam]

If it's only guidance then GMP can tell local RFDs to follow whatever procedure they provide them with.

[Chapuis]

If it's only guidance then GMP can tell local RFDs to follow whatever procedure they provide them with.

I received back my FAC last week following a variation (not from GMP but another force). Something that I hadn't noticed on previous copies of my certificates was the procedure for remote selling via a RFD transfer.
Though listed as guidance rather than an actual condition the procedure is quite clearly laid out and leaves you in no doubt whatsoever as to who should make the entry on the buyers certificate, the seller and not the receiving RFD.

[Gaz]

If it's only guidance then GMP can tell local RFDs to follow whatever procedure they provide them with.

I received back my FAC last week following a variation (not from GMP but another force). Something that I hadn't noticed on previous copies of my certificates was the procedure for remote selling via a RFD transfer.
Though listed as guidance rather than an actual condition the procedure is quite clearly laid out and leaves you in no doubt whatsoever as to who should make the entry on the buyers certificate, the seller and not the receiving RFD.

My old-style certificate had that on as well. It's not law, and nobody I know is bothering with it.

[ovenpaa]

I have not seen a new SGC yet so can anyone confirm they have the same wording as the FAC?

[phaedra1106]

Just got my FAC back from Durham last week and it says this,

1. You must complete each column of Table 1 Firearms or Table 2 Ammunition.

2. lf you are a registered firearms dealer or a person who is entitled to possess a firearm without a
certificate, you must inform the Chief Officer of Police who issued this certificate within 7 days
about the transaction by recorded delivery or permitted electronic means. You should provide a
description of the firearm (including its identification number, if any). You must also state whether
the firearm was sold, let on hire, given or lent, and give the name and address of the holder of this
certificate.

3. Any circumstances attending the transaction which appear to require investigation must be
reported within 48 hours to the Chief Officer of Police who granted this certificate.

4. lf you are selling a firearm and/or ammunition which will be sent or posted to another dealer for
the buyer to collect in person, you should complete the table(s) and notify the police of the
transaction concerning the firearm (as in 2 above). The dealer who actually hands over the firearm
and/or ammunition should not complete the table(s) or notify the police (except in circumstances
which may require police investigation as above).


SGC Says this,

1 You must complete each column of Table 2 Shot guns transferred;

2 ln the case of a shot gun - if you are a registered firearm dealer or a person who is entitled to possess
the shot gun without a certificate - you must inform the chief officer of police who issued this
certificate within 7 days about the transaction by registered post or recorded delivery. You should
provide a description of the shot gun (including its identification number, if any). Also say whether
the shot gun was sold, let on hire, given or lent, and give the name and address of the holder of this
certificate: and

3 Any circumstances attending the transaction which require investigation must be reported within 48
hours to the chief officer of police who granted this certificate. If you are selling a shot gun which
will be sent or posted to another dealer for the buyer to collect in person you should complete this
table and notify the police. The dealer who actually hands over the shot gun should not complete the
table or notify the police (except in circumstances which may require investigation as above).

My take on this is that I'm not sending or posting the item, I transfer it to my RFD and immediately notify Plod as required by law, at that point it's no longer on my SGC/FAC.

He then transfers it to another RFD and sends it, on receipt the other RFD enters it into his stock and subsequently transfers it to a valid SGC/FAC owner.

[bigfathairybiker]

I contacted the BASC about this subject and they could not provide an explaination, only a copy of the wording from the guidance.

Anyway, I would't buy a used firearm without seeing it in the flesh first. So I might as well pick it up while I'm there.

Mark

[Mattnall]

If it's only guidance then GMP can tell local RFDs to follow whatever procedure they provide them with.

I received back my FAC last week following a variation (not from GMP but another force). Something that I hadn't noticed on previous copies of my certificates was the procedure for remote selling via a RFD transfer.
Though listed as guidance rather than an actual condition the procedure is quite clearly laid out and leaves you in no doubt whatsoever as to who should make the entry on the buyers certificate, the seller and not the receiving RFD.

My old-style certificate had that on as well. It's not law, and nobody I know is bothering with it.

If it's written on the FAC (even as notes and not in the conditions section) I'd be a bit careful about not complying with them.

This is how the Police have wanted it done for as long as I have been an RFD but as it wasn't written in Law, on the FACs or in the Guidance not many people I know followed it. Now it is written in the Guidance and on the FACs and if it came to it, I guess the defence of "I didn't feel it necessary to follow the guidance or the notes on the license" wouldn't been seen in a favourable light.

[Mattnall]

My take on this is that I'm not sending or posting the item, I transfer it to my RFD and immediately notify Plod as required by law, at that point it's no longer on my SGC/FAC.

He then transfers it to another RFD and sends it, on receipt the other RFD enters it into his stock and subsequently transfers it to a valid SGC/FAC owner.

Unfortunately you are the seller, the RFDs are merely agents in the transferring process between you and the buyer (as are TNT or Parcel Force drivers and handlers).
The Guidance is very clear on this and mentions that, although the RFDs will have to enter the rifles on their registers, they are not selling or buying anything in this case.

It isn't how most RFDs and FAC holders have been doing things, I know, but I think it will soon become the norm. It will take the onus off the RFDs to do all the paperwork and maybe some fees will drop accordingly

So unless we all do things the same way the system is still faulty.
Last year I bought a rifle from someone on this site as a present and it was sent to me via an RFD. I guess the seller told Police it was with XYZ RFD and as I received it from XYZ RFD I didn't have to notify anyone and never saw the seller's FAC. Now last month I transferred it to my FAC and informed the local police as necessary. A few days later I got a call saying that it wasn't on my register, where did I get it from?
Two things:
1. How did they know it was or wasn't on my register? (Can/does FLMS record RFD to RFD transfers?)
2. XYZ RFD thought the seller had transferred it to me and not to them, therefore XYZ never told their Police of the seller disposing of a firearm.
This took a year to come to light and only because I notified my police who tried to enter it in the system, it must have thrown up an error.