NRA: UKPSA members might be committing criminal offences

[Demonic69]

So what does F4I offer over the UKPSA? The strife was all before my shooting time

[dromia]

Looks like the strife is set to continue then until the demise of one or more of the factions.

What a bloody disgrace all round, you would think all the players would put gun ownership, shooting and shooters first rather than their own petty polarisations.

Shame on them all.

No wonder shooting and gun ownership is doomed in the UK when this is what we get "leading" and "representing" us at high table. ACPO, the Home Office, gun control network et al must be laughing their socks of in glee at the disgrace that is UK shooting at a national level.

[Thorney]

To be fair this particular squabble is really only 4islands, ukpsa and nra as it pertains to practical shooting, I'm sure the gallery rifle, csr, distance, f class guys really dgaf and look at the whole situation with a combination of dismay and/or amusement. However practical shooting (or simply shooting with movement to be really expansive of it) is a growing part of shooting, not just here but worldwide. so what we have is a growing section of our sport having the most public argument between organsiational bodies to detriment of all of us. The whole situation is so wrapped up in personalities (he did that, she did that) that none of the players can do anything other ther retaliate and counter retaliate so it escalates with no sign of ending. The fact that the ipsc decision has not been made is the worst outcome for anyone in that it will continue to fight until one side is the victor.

What's really odd is that I've shot with both sides of this pathetic war, I've even shot in the same squad at the same time and on a human being nature they are nice, friendly shooters who (if you keep them off the subject of who did what to who) are perfectly able to get along, but if the subject of what happened and when comes up they are prepared to fight like children, not sure how you deal with that without either simply banging their heads together or taking away the toys and giving them to someone else. In the meantime the rank and file shooter just looks on bemused and frustrated that a sport that should be capitolising on its growing strength is instead eating itself.

[John MH]

The NRA could and should simply walk away from all the squabbling.

[Demonic69]

The NRA could and should simply walk away from all the squabbling.

Wouldn't that jeopardise their bid John?

[Blackstuff]

To be fair this particular squabble is really only 4islands, ukpsa and nra as it pertains to practical shooting, I'm sure the gallery rifle, csr, distance, f class guys really dgaf and look at the whole situation with a combination of dismay and/or amusement. However practical shooting (or simply shooting with movement to be really expansive of it) is a growing part of shooting, not just here but worldwide. so what we have is a growing section of our sport having the most public argument between organsiational bodies to detriment of all of us. The whole situation is so wrapped up in personalities (he did that, she did that) that none of the players can do anything other ther retaliate and counter retaliate so it escalates with no sign of ending. The fact that the ipsc decision has not been made is the worst outcome for anyone in that it will continue to fight until one side is the victor.

What's really odd is that I've shot with both sides of this pathetic war, I've even shot in the same squad at the same time and on a human being nature they are nice, friendly shooters who (if you keep them off the subject of who did what to who) are perfectly able to get along, but if the subject of what happened and when comes up they are prepared to fight like children, not sure how you deal with that without either simply banging their heads together or taking away the toys and giving them to someone else. In the meantime the rank and file shooter just looks on bemused and frustrated that a sport that should be capitolising on its growing strength is instead eating itself.

The best, and one of the least skewed by personal experience post on this thread

I'm not going to engage with some of things presented on this thread as 'facts' suffice to say with some knowledge of what went on (and is sadly still going on) much of it is twisted one way or the other and it shouldn't be taken as gospel.

If Mercer had genuine concerns about insurance arrangements those concerns should have been directed to the UKPSA council privately, its as simple as that. Even if he felt he couldn't do that, or in the highly unlikely scenario that he did and was ignored, the UKPSAs Regional Director could have been approached personally and with something as potentially serious as this he would have listened without question.

To me this looks like nothing more than a petty personal swipe at the UKPSA with the shooters being the ones to suffer.

[Chapuis]

Looks like the strife is set to continue then until the demise of one or more of the factions.

What a bloody disgrace all round, you would think all the players would put gun ownership, shooting and shooters first rather than their own petty polarisations.

Shame on them all.

No wonder shooting and gun ownership is doomed in the UK when this is what we get "leading" and "representing" us at high table. ACPO, the Home Office, gun control network et al must be laughing their socks of in glee at the disgrace that is UK shooting at a national level.

Dromia my feelings exactly.
Makes you bloody wonder if any of these guys are really interested in shooting or just want to get involved in politics. Too much knob measuing for my liking.
This sort of thing is turning me away from target shooting and organisations like the NRA.

[Thorney]

Looks like the strife is set to continue then until the demise of one or more of the factions.

What a bloody disgrace all round, you would think all the players would put gun ownership, shooting and shooters first rather than their own petty polarisations.

Shame on them all.

No wonder shooting and gun ownership is doomed in the UK when this is what we get "leading" and "representing" us at high table. ACPO, the Home Office, gun control network et al must be laughing their socks of in glee at the disgrace that is UK shooting at a national level.

Dromia my feelings exactly.
Makes you bloody wonder if any of these guys are really interested in shooting or just want to get involved in politics. Too much knob measuing for my liking.
This sort of thing is turning me away from target shooting and organisations like the NRA.

And thats the crucial aspect, if its putting off existing shooters what is it doing to the casual shooter, the new shooter? I cant see anyone observing the situation and saying "ooh, thats looks fun, lets go and do that!".

I dont know Mercer, I've had some dealings with him on the range and he was helpful, polite and effective, I dont know the UKPSA council guys, but again in my dealings in joining and arranging a safety course (which we are doing at my range as the other courses were all full) they have also been helpful, polite and effective so from my perspective (and experience) I cant see how or why these two (three?) groups of people cant just set aside their differences and move on?

Its not money related, as had been said, the UKPSA doesnt actually do matches the clubs do so the clubs get the revenue not the organisational group, there are membership fees of course but if I'm honest the £70 odd I pay to be in the NRA and the £10 (£30 on renewal?) for UKPSA doesnt even get near my petrol bill for driving to shoots so it has to be political/power/personal related.

I did offer a few months ago to act as an intermediary, I'd make that offer again if I thought anyone would take it up but they all seem so intent on taking pieces out of each other I dont know if it can improve, I'd hope so.

As for this situation, its my understanding (I have no insider knowledge, simply what I've learnt openly) is that the NRA in reviewing the UKPSA financial side had questions over the provision of insurance and enquired of the UKPSA to verify those. For whatever reason that response was either not fast enough or ignored or missed so the NRA sought to inform members of that lack of information. If the situation had not allowed to become so personal this would've been sorted with a quick phonecall but due to the fact its all so nasty now its exploded into a public fight and makes them all look bad (I'm not apportioning blame) simply that every single one of them as a group(s) are responsible for what is at best a PR screw up and at worst the continued impression that shooting and shooters are less important than who organises it.

I still hope (and make the offer again) that the UKPSA, NRA and 4Islands can put their differences aside and agree to move on, I'd even host a meeting here for them and lay on tea and biscuits (no stabbing weapons, guns left outside please) purely in the desperate hope that we can sort this before the season starts, so how about it, I know all the groups lurk here, anyone take me up on it?

[4Islander]

Looks like the strife is set to continue then until the demise of one or more of the factions.

Not really, all that is needed is for the NRA to hold the IPSC franchise, effectively removing the UKPSA executive who are responsible for expelling people & some very poor financial decisions that have wasted a lot of their members money.

No need for the demise of any group, all could continue doing what they do which is to promote safe shooting, as Thorney says it needs someone to take away their ball & bang some heads together, IPSC could do that quite easily, simply give the franchise to the NRA & the problems go away.

The groups seperately have done a lot of good work, we have seen practical shooting grow at Bisley, James Harris has worked his socks off to that end with the NRA, & yet as a thankyou the UKPSA have expelled him, how does that action support UK shooting ?

Equally trying to prevent F4i matches from happening at Bisley is also unsupportive of shooters & the advancement of UK shooting in general, not to mention down right disgraceful.

Only one group is led by a spiteful core of individuals who after years of dictating how practical shooting in the UK could be done have reacted badly to those who only wished to expand its reach & make it easier for people to get involved thereby circumventing their control.

The UKPSA council are reacting this way because they fear the loss of that monopoly, it has nothing to do with doing what is right for UK shooters, if that was their goal they wouldn't have waited years for a group like F4i to come along & force them into reacting more positively now.

Its easy to come on here & say all the groups should get along, two of them do get along just fine, the third could be made to play nicely if they just had their ball taken away.

SUPPORT THE NRA !!!


4I

[4Islander]

Its not money related, as had been said, the UKPSA doesnt actually do matches the clubs do so the clubs get the revenue not the organisational group, there are membership fees of course but if I'm honest the £70 odd I pay to be in the NRA and the £10 (£30 on renewal?) for UKPSA doesnt even get near my petrol bill for driving to shoots so it has to be political/power/personal related.

I think it might be a bit of both John, they (UKPSA) currently sit on about £100,000 in the coffers & power of control over that money sits with the 5 elected positions, these are the trustees of the charity, in the latest accounts published they have claimed £12,000 in annual expenses between them, I have no idea if that is a fair amount or not, they have also used association money to pay for lawyers in disputes that should never even have happened if they had done a better job.

4I