Sig Sauer P226 LBP

[AR15]

I have held off from posting anything on this as I don't want to appear to be having a go at Icon. Hats of to Mike, whoever he is, for getting a Sig 226 LBP going in the first place. It will have taken a lot of hard work and effort.

Now I looked at producing a Glock 17/ 22 about a year and a half ago and after pretty extensive investigation I decided it was simply too painful to source the pistol frame in a condition that was suitable for UK law and UK assembly.
For those who don't know I am a Sec5 dealer with 5a, 5ab and 5aba authority.
As I said the problem is the frame. While there is a consideration in the legislation that allows Sec 5ab (semi automatic rifles) components to be classified as Sec 1 (when in component form, think un registered SLR parts kits) no such law exists for 5a (Full Auto) or 5aba (Short Barrel/ Pistols).

See this link to a letter PAR freight received from the Home Office http://www.parfreight.com/wordpress/?p=20

Also Sec 5 firearms and components cannot be converted to Sec1 either.

Now Germany and Austria have different laws to the USA and a pistol frame can be sold unregistered in Germany or Austria, In the case of Glock they don't make it easy to acquire such things and it proved too time consuming and mainly unreliable to source them this way so I gave up on that.

In the USA a pistol frame MUST be registered at time of manufacture, just like an AR15 lower, it is the controlled part of the weapon. The Sig 226 is available in .22LR amongst other calibers and the frame HAS to be registered as something under Federal/ BATF law.
If its registered in the USA as a SEMI AUTO .22LR PISTOL then that frame component IS Sec5 aba in this country and CANNOT be converted to a Sec1 LBP. It would also require more costly import and be subject to costly movement/ carriage restriction on UK soil.

So the frame would have to be registered in the USA by SIG as an LBP component or receiver to avoid any possible legal issues with assembly in the UK.

Pretty impressive to get SIG to agree to that, as you are effectively making your own gun with their branding.

The other problem here is export from the USA. Department of State would have to investigate what an LBP was before issuing an export license and that will have been a time consuming process for sure. Anything out of the norm takes ages for them to process, try 1 year for a flared magwell on an AR15 competition rifle to Germany.

So I'm pretty amazed that they got this off the ground with UK assembly. Unless the legislation has changed or the Home Office have clearer guidelines on 5aba component parts. I just hope its been setup properly is all.
For everyone's sakes.

[SevenSixTwo]

Or HMG could just repeal the ban; given that we're an inventive species anyway...

[Mike357]

Here's a question, the Walther barrels that Icon had to use, do those decrying the price think they were off the shelf? You know, for all the other LBPs in other markets across the world?

[Sim G]

I have held off from posting anything on this as I don't want to appear to be having a go at Icon. Hats of to Mike, whoever he is, for getting a Sig 226 LBP going in the first place. It will have taken a lot of hard work and effort.

Now I looked at producing a Glock 17/ 22 about a year and a half ago and after pretty extensive investigation I decided it was simply too painful to source the pistol frame in a condition that was suitable for UK law and UK assembly.
For those who don't know I am a Sec5 dealer with 5a, 5ab and 5aba authority.
As I said the problem is the frame. While there is a consideration in the legislation that allows Sec 5ab (semi automatic rifles) components to be classified as Sec 1 (when in component form, think un registered SLR parts kits) no such law exists for 5a (Full Auto) or 5aba (Short Barrel/ Pistols).

See this link to a letter PAR freight received from the Home Office http://www.parfreight.com/wordpress/?p=20

Also Sec 5 firearms and components cannot be converted to Sec1 either.

Now Germany and Austria have different laws to the USA and a pistol frame can be sold unregistered in Germany or Austria, In the case of Glock they don't make it easy to acquire such things and it proved too time consuming and mainly unreliable to source them this way so I gave up on that.

In the USA a pistol frame MUST be registered at time of manufacture, just like an AR15 lower, it is the controlled part of the weapon. The Sig 226 is available in .22LR amongst other calibers and the frame HAS to be registered as something under Federal/ BATF law.
If its registered in the USA as a SEMI AUTO .22LR PISTOL then that frame component IS Sec5 aba in this country and CANNOT be converted to a Sec1 LBP. It would also require more costly import and be subject to costly movement/ carriage restriction on UK soil.

So the frame would have to be registered in the USA by SIG as an LBP component or receiver to avoid any possible legal issues with assembly in the UK.

Pretty impressive to get SIG to agree to that, as you are effectively making your own gun with their branding.

The other problem here is export from the USA. Department of State would have to investigate what an LBP was before issuing an export license and that will have been a time consuming process for sure. Anything out of the norm takes ages for them to process, try 1 year for a flared magwell on an AR15 competition rifle to Germany.

So I'm pretty amazed that they got this off the ground with UK assembly. Unless the legislation has changed or the Home Office have clearer guidelines on 5aba component parts. I just hope its been setup properly is all.
For everyone's sakes.

From what I have read, the frame of the P226 Classic .22 is actually the frame of the P226 in 9mm. The slide/barrel/magazine are even sold separately as a conversion kit for those with centre fire 226...

[joe]

Or HMG could just repeal the ban; given that we're an inventive species anyway...

alot of the public dont relise that handguns are legal in NI, Maby if us and shooting organsations went to the press and to the mp's and banged on about that point...and say how come the people of NI can be trusted and not the english!, its not a problem there etc then again i am probably living in a pipe dream, where in reality the uk government will probably just say ok then we'll ban them there as well and screw the NI Governement !

[joe]

From what I have read, the frame of the P226 Classic .22 is actually the frame of the P226 in 9mm. The slide/barrel/magazine are even sold separately as a conversion kit for those with centre fire 226...[/quote]


that is correct ! its called the x-change kit if you want a 9mm / 45acp/ 40 top slide to fit on the p226 classic frame !
what you really getting is a real p226 with a .22lr conversion kit on !

[Sim G]

Here's a question, the Walther barrels that Icon had to use, do those decrying the price think they were off the shelf? You know, for all the other LBPs in other markets across the world?

A .22, 1 in 16" twist, Lothar Walther barrel blank, 755mm (29.7") long, is available, off the shelf in the UK for £126 retail. Barrels on the 226 rimfire I'm informed, are threaded and screwed into a breech block that has the chamber, extractor groove and ejector fitted to it.

[joe]

Here's a question, the Walther barrels that Icon had to use, do those decrying the price think they were off the shelf? You know, for all the other LBPs in other markets across the world?

A .22, 1 in 16" twist, Lothar Walther barrel blank, 755mm (29.7") long, is available, off the shelf in the UK for £126 retail. Barrels on the 226 rimfire I'm informed, are threaded and screwed into a breech block that has the chamber, extractor groove and ejector fitted to it.

does the barrel have a decent thickness not a pencil thin type one ?

[Sim G]

Haven't a clue. Presuming the same thickness as the full bore barrel, well at least up to the muzzle and out the front of the slide. May be turned down after that to save on weight and muzzle heaviness?

[ordnance]

alot of the public dont relise that handguns are legal in NI, Maby if us and shooting organsations went to the press and to the mp's and banged on about that point...and say how come the people of NI can be trusted and not the english!,

There are a few reasons why the ban did not apply here. One reason unlike most of the politicians that supported the ban in the rest of the UK most politicians here were against it and still are.

Mo Mowlam ``After much thought, I am not persuaded of the need to prohibit the possession and use of target handguns in Northern Ireland. I realise that my decision may disappoint some people who feel strongly, as I do, about firearms control and safeguarding the public''.

quoteFor what it is worth, the only official number of CCW (Concealed Carry Weapons [American terminology, approximately equivalent to the PPW concept]) in NI that I have ever seen was the figure of circa 10,000 given by Mo Mowlam in 1997/8 as part of her explanation as to why the UK pistol ban was not being extended to NI. In addition to the 10,000 CCW, she said that there were 2,000 FAC (Firearms Certificates) for target pistols.
My understanding at the time was that the Home Office wanted the ban extended to NI and for it to include the CCW. Mowlam was struggling hard at the time to pull off what became known as "The Good Friday Agreement" and, when the Unionist politicians made it very clear that if their personal CCW were withdrawn they would cease to even try and reach agreement, Mowlam decided to leave the situation alone.