Sig Sauer P226 LBP

[Sim G]

The handgun ban was about which political party, the one trying to hang on to power or the one trying to gain power, could exact the greater revenge for Hamiltons crimes. Lord Cullen didn't recommend a ban, and the sitting Conservative government didn't expand the ban to small bore. Labour and red top editors were screaming from the roof tops!

Had the massacre happened the year after the election, I don't think we would have seen the draconian legislation we did. All the ban achieved was that as far as possible, another massacre would not be committed with a legally held, cartridge firing pistol. They made no bones, that was the objective. I have umpteen letters from MPs at the time who stated they supported shooting, but not with pistols as they were just designed to kill!!!

[joe]

[quote="Sim G"]The handgun ban was about which political party, the one trying to hang on to power or the one trying to gain power, could exact the greater revenge for Hamiltons crimes. Lord Cullen didn't recommend a ban, and the sitting Conservative government didn't expand the ban to small bore. Labour and red top editors were screaming from the roof tops!

Had the massacre happened the year after the election, I don't think we would have seen the draconian legislation we did. All the ban achieved was that as far as possible, another massacre would not be committed with a legally held, cartridge firing pistol. They made no bones, that was the objective. I have umpteen letters from MPs at the time who stated they supported shooting, but not with pistols as they were just designed to kill!!![/quote]



total cretins!
however wasnt the Conservative original act which didnt ban .22lr pistols, didnt they have be stored in gun clubs ??

[joe]

I plan to purchase the Sig so have got Mike to send over a quote, just need to wait until end of March for delivery.

Why .22 are they doing a 9MM version.

could do a lever release one in 9mm midway uk were going to do one ! a tanfoglio lever release pistol chambered in 9mm or 45 acp...however they have gone slient now!

[Sim G]

It's all relative. Don't lose sight of the work Icon have done to get this pistol off the ground. There was a lot of R&D as well as having to source alternative barrels. It's not as simple as comparing like for like and then bitching about it. That doesn't explain how the Volquartsen LBPs from Stockade are always sold out and they are over £2k.

Where do we take the benchmark from, Mike? We see a pistol sold in the U.S. for 600 local and around Europe for 700 local. But add a rod and a lengthened barrel and we have 1350 quid? Do the dealers in the US or Europe not make a profit?

You mention a VQ LBP. How many has he sold? But regardless, the VQ is a far better buy at 2K than a Sig LR at 1350. How many times has a comparison for the US market been sought and the advice even from dealers and importers is when you see dollars, think pounds? The VQ with the options offered by Stockade is over 1800 dollars bought in the States. So 2K sterling is not far off the mark. The Sig is even made in Europe! We hear countless times how much easier it is dealing with Europe than the US. 700 Euros there. And again, as far as a comparison can be made, the Sig 522. 799 Euros in Germany, 650 sterling in the UK. So why the mythical "must consider" not pertain to this also? Because of a rod and a barrel? Nah, doesn't figure.

The Sig may very well be a nice piece of kit. Reviews of the pistol in its original form vary from the very good, to the almost ran. But choice for a more free society no doubt features there. If someone has the money and is willing to drop it on a Sig LBP, then good luck to them, but I don't do desperation. Unfortunately, a good quality, fairly priced LBP is probably going to be a rare beast in the UK, which is why they will remain the preserve of a select few.

[Sim G]

however wasnt the Conservative original act which didnt ban .22lr pistols, didnt they have be stored in gun clubs ??

No, they would have remained in the individual shooters home. Lord Cullen thought the concept of storing firearms centrally was very undesirable, for a number of reasons.

[Tony-c]

The gsg should be available cheap soon. I reckon they be about 400 to 450 quid

[safetyfirst]

My gsg threw awful groups with everything I tried in it.

My k22, benched using a laser sight one holes at 15m with minimag and ragged holes with sk.

Couldn't see the laser any further!

[safetyfirst]

Sim, I think the missing money here might be the weeks and weeks of work trying to get this product made, tested and imported when there is a very limited market for them.

Time is expensive, the market is small. How many do they have to sell to make a profit? How much will Mike's "hourly wage" be when he's sold 50? I'll wager he could have made more money flipping burgers if he's not careful.

He's put a lot of time and effort into the pistol and a just reward in bringing another option to us impoverished shooters is deserved.

I hope he sells enough to bring the price down for the next batch, though I paid around £800 for my K22 and the build quality is stunning, accuracy rifle like and the trigger is fantastic. Plus it's a blast to shoot, 19 round mag dumps are an incredibly quick and satisfying way to lose money.

The Sig does have that satisfying old school pistol weight to it though, looks like a great gun.

[HALODIN]

The 100 year closure-order imposed on the Dunblane report is still in force, so we only have opinion at this point. I guess the real answer is two fold - size/concealment and the ability to chamber the next round quickly. Didn't the 12"/12" total firearm length come about as a result of Dunblane?

Have you a link or any evidence that was given showing that concealment was a factor. Or is it just your opinion. ?

[qws]

I am very pleased this thread has taken a life of it's own. I shared the thread with Mike of Icon Arms and he had a few comments ref the setup cost of getting an LBP into the UK

See Below: exactly as the e-mail Mike sent to me:

Thanks for all the feedback Richard.

I have looked at the forum link that you sent to me and I have a couple of comments regarding some of the follow-up posts therein. Regarding the cost of the pistol, due to UK law we cannot import a pistol from Sig Sauer then convert it, as once any firearm has been assembled in prohibited form it retains its Section 5 prohibited status even if it complies with the technical requirements of Section 1. This means that we have to import components from Sig Sauer then assemble the pistols for the first time here in the UK as Section 1 firearms which is an expensive route: if you had to recreate the car that you currently drive by building it yourself from parts sourced from the main dealer rather than driving it off their forecourt, it would certainly cost you a great deal more.

To be completely candid, although I am always fairly dismissive about statements about the comparative cost of firearms and parts in the US, they continue to frustrate me as they are usually made by people that have absolutely no understanding of what is required to procure those items and bring them into the UK legally. They ignore the fact that unless you are a permanent or semi-permanent resident of the same state in which the FFL is located, most FFLs will not sell you a firearm or controlled component in person (they cannot even sell to a US citizen who is domiciled out of state). It is however possible to import remotely from the US and other countries (as we do at Icon Arms) but this requires an export licence. This has a cost of upwards of $375 and an export agent will be required as most manufacturers and virtually all shops do not want to deal with the bureaucracy surrounding firearms export from the US. An export licence will not be granted without first having an appropriate UK import licence in place (of which there are two types). Most US export agents levy an administration charge of 5% of the value of any purchase order and have a minimum shipping charge of $350. Firearms and parts are often subject to additional ITAR or US Department of Commerce export restrictions for which additional permissions and licences are necessary (both having additional associated costs). As well as complete firearms, components like magazines, receivers, barrels, triggers, muzzle devices and optics fall within these areas. To import firearms and pressure-bearing components into the UK, a UK import licence is required from the Department of Business, Innovation and Skills. To import a pistol (or other prohibited firearm) Home Office authority (i.e. Section 5) is required before the grant of a Specific Import Licence is considered by BIS, and Section 5 authority is very closely controlled for fairly obvious reasons. Many of these statements also overlook that travel to the US usual involves a return flight which is usually several hundred pounds from even the bucket shop carriers. Once the firearm is landed in the UK it becomes subject to import duty and VAT, the latter being levied on the total cost including shipping. The importing of firearms and components into the UK is closely monitored by the National Crime Agency (NCA, formerly known as the Serious Crime Squad) and visits to importers by their officers are common. The reality is that most individuals that make these types of uninformed comments cannot nor ever will be allowed to import firearms in the UK and whilst there are importers in the UK that charge extortionate prices for imported firearms and parts (and we all know who they are), Icon Arms like many other businesses operates on very modest margins: We only source the highest quality firearms and parts from the best suppliers worldwide rather than those of lesser quality or sourced from weaker economies. Whilst our products are typically towards the higher end of the price range in any of the sectors in which we compete, we differentiate our products on quality rather than price and they always provide value as a result.

Again, thanks for you great feedback and I look forward to talking with you again soon.

Best regards
Mike

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Mike Jakes
Icon Arms Limited
RFD 33/00000004041
Stathern, Leicestershire, LE14 4HW, United Kingdom


M: +44 7816 512874
T: +44 1949 861875
mike.jakes@iconarms.com
www.iconarms.com


I think Mike makes a fair point regarding the amount of time and effort to get a legal LBP on the UK market let alone all the R&D needed to get the pistol right. I am sure it was the same for people from Caledonian Classic Arms and Low Mills when they wanted to sell the K22 and 1911 in the UK. Without the likes of these companies we would not even have these options open to us. So really well done to all of these pioneers for getting these for us to choose from.