Club Long Barrelled Firearms

[IsleShoot]

Recent interest in LBF's at my club due to a couple of members buying K22's and the recent NRA 'practical pistol' match thats led to smaller efforts locally have led to the Club talking about getting a couple of club guns to promote the disciple.

Only problem appears to be Home Office guidance to the police that LBF's & LBR's should not be held by Clubs.

I know of two clubs that have them regardless of the HO guidance and I'm wondering if there are anymore out there?

I've also been advised that much like Sec 1 shotguns, unless you have a LBF or LBR on your ticket you're not even allowed to hold one let alone shoot one!

[saddler]

Hope two clubs have good legal insurance...as HO policy is strictly against such practice.

Some UK makers have addressed the problem by making carbine versions, which have removable stocks (but still remain S.1 compliant without the stock)
That way the club holds a S.1 carbine...not an LBR/LBP

Thin ice otherwise!

[Gaz]

Didn't a club take the Home Office to court over this exact thing and win, on the basis that there's no law which lets them restrict the types of firearm on a club certificate? I seem to remember it was long barrelled pistols.

Oh, if only we had a proper shooting news service that reported on this sort of thing.

[FencepostError]

Didn't a club take the Home Office to court over this exact thing and win, on the basis that there's no law which lets them restrict the types of firearm on a club certificate? I seem to remember it was long barrelled pistols.

Oh, if only we had a proper shooting news service that reported on this sort of thing.

My club has an LBR back as a club gun after a court case (somewhere else), I think. I can probably get the details at some point if no-one else comes up with them first...

[IsleShoot]

Regina V's Wells - Mr Wells was acquitted on the grounds that the 1968 act does not make the definition between pistol & rifle and that in rationalising the act with the 1997 amendment and introducing minimum barrel and overall lengths there is no distinction between Sec 1 firearms. They're either Legal or prohibited.

The HO guidance refers to small arms and long arms. An LBF or LBR is a long arm so therefore legal and post the court case considered a 'carbine', how then can the HO prevent a club from owning one?

[Tony-c]

exactly.

a very small 10/22 that complies with the 30/30 rule for example, thats still a rifle, so whats the difference with a LBP that complies with 30/30 rule

[Blackstuff]

Yeah i thought Mike Wells of the Sportmans Association had fought a successful court case on this? Drop him an email, he usually replies quite quickly, even to non-members

[Sandgroper]

From http://lewisnedas.co.uk/Cases/firearms-cases.html Note the last sentence...

This case was effectively a test prosecution on whether the Buckmark firearm, as modified by Westlake Engineering, is a 'rifle' or 'pistol', and so whether it can be placed on a club firearm certificate. Following a trial lasting 5 days at Kingston Crown Court, in which the jury were directed that they should only convict if they were satisfied this firearm is a pistol, Mr Wells was acquitted of both counts on 26 November 2010. Whilst the jury's decision in this case does not formally set a precedent, gun clubs wishing to acquire such a modified Buckmark rifle, may wish to refer their local police firearms licensing department to the outcome in this case as being highly persuasive.

[IsleShoot]

I've been in contact with Mike and he's been enormously helpful. I'm trying to get an idea of how many clubs out there have them so I can use them as examples if challenged? Currently only two from what I can gather but hoping when/if my club applies for a couple of LBF's we can cite Regina v's Wells and the good old Health & Safety argument of how can a club be expected to provide training and ensure competence if they cannot provide guns to train probationers on?

I expect the NRA and the BSSC to wade in on this too now the NRA have held a very successful LBF practical pistol match? Surely that adds further legitimacy to the whole LBF/LBR issue not mention the long running and equally successful gallery disciplines? The UKPSA should also be doing their bit as HO advisers should they not???

[Andy632]

From http://lewisnedas.co.uk/Cases/firearms-cases.html Note the last sentence...

This case was effectively a test prosecution on whether the Buckmark firearm, as modified by Westlake Engineering, is a 'rifle' or 'pistol', and so whether it can be placed on a club firearm certificate. Following a trial lasting 5 days at Kingston Crown Court, in which the jury were directed that they should only convict if they were satisfied this firearm is a pistol, Mr Wells was acquitted of both counts on 26 November 2010. Whilst the jury's decision in this case does not formally set a precedent, gun clubs wishing to acquire such a modified Buckmark rifle, may wish to refer their local police firearms licensing department to the outcome in this case as being highly persuasive.

Well done Grant, I'll maybe put in a club variation for one or two.