Mercer & NRA Against Reloading

[Maggot]

The point is the comment in the journal, hardly positive to reloading. Said earlier in the thread that I hoped it was Andrew Mercer getting a comment wrong and it sounds like this is the case. Equally, if reloading is identified as a safety risk there will be those who want it regulated / banned etc. this must not be allowed.

Read the AGM minutes!

http://www.nra.org.uk/common/asp/genera ... ategory=13

And if the MoD decide that reloading is "a safety risk" it will be the NRA fighting your corner (as they did with certification a few years back) so you can continue shooting.

Saying "this must not be allowed" and other anti-NRA comments (by others) isn't going to change the MoD's mind if they decide to ban reloaded ammo on their ranges.

This is one of those times when all of you need to SUPPORT the NRA (whatever you think of them).

"Various safety issues were raised including the breech explosion at Kingsbury, with a report
submitted to MoD. The conclusion reached was that an error with hand loaded ammunition was
the cause.

The trend causing most concern is every recent case has been as a result of hand loaded
ammunition. It was felt that education is needed."

Hi Karen

Sorry, am I being thick as this is all I can find.

As a point of fact I, and probably a majority are behind the NRA, but sometimes I wonder.

IF this were to become reality, surely the point would be to re-educate those that need it (not the entire shooting populous).

The problem is that the relevant details of the findings of these accidents need to be made clear to all.

If this is not the case, then heresay takes over and you get something not unlike this thread which is people getting indignant about something that may or may not occur, but they are worried.

Why are they worried? Because they only ever get what the hierarchy (such as it is) is willing to tell them or, failing that, what warped and twisted version they can get 15th hand on the range somewhere. The latter is not only potentially damaging to the association but also does more harm than good.

The message is that if you are going to make statements like "Education is needed", fine, but don't be surprised when folk read into that what they think might be implied.

Would not...."We will ask an expert to look into this and examine the causes (where known) and let the members know so that they can adjust their procedures accordingly" have been better or just "We will look into it and report back".

Be more transparent, there is no excuse not to, and every reason to do so.

[Maggot]

Any sort of course could be passed by anyone but the most vacant. It's easy enough to answer questions or do an exam on the day about things you've just learned. Look how many complete numpties pass their driving tests (I know a girl who passed on her eighth time and definitely can't drive safely)

I would think it would be far more indicative to ask people pertinent questions randomly and pull some of their ammo and check whether it falls within spec. Testing people randomly and really just asking them to talk though how they reload and what they understand about it would show both true comprehension and practical application.
Most in my club reload and I trust almost all of them to be knowledgable enough to be safe. One of them I don't and therefore avoid being on the bench to the right of him ( on the left of him is probably the safest place in Bisley, he has a great deal of mass that I'm guessing would absorb a small nuke let alone one rifles worth of shrapnel :-)) I've heard him discuss his 'load development' and he seems to have a bit of knowledge which in this example is definitely a dangerous thing.

Having said that, long may reloading be allowed. The most dangerous point of a Bisley shoot is the drive there.

Random sampling and testing isn't really viable as it isn't consistent and leads to accusations of unfairness.

I agree with you though about the drive to Bisley - Shooting is incredibly safe in comparison to things like driving and diving...I've known people who've died doing both, but have never heard of a loading fatality in the UK...

...and I don't think we should allow the hazards of reloading to be over-blown or exaggerated (that would be counterproductive for us all) - If it actually comes to it, then personally I'd find out what the minimum requirement of the MOD would be, and work towards that.

I'm pretty certain the minimum was Maggot loading bags into a light gun with his boot and sock off so he could keep count with his hands full tongueout tongueout

Point or order M'lud.....I was in air defence so had sod all to do with steamies.....although I did have to ask Mik Mak to add a score up for me earlier in the year because my head was quite literally fried.....

[Steve E]

Having read through this thread, it is quite obvious that the majority of you do not get it.
The NRA is not about to ban hand loads as that would be tantamount to cutting its own throat.
If you think that the NRA is going to ban hand loads then please direct me to where this is stated as, as I have said in a a previous post there is just a reference in the current journal to the MoD's concern that hand loads have figured in several firearms failures on MoD ranges.
The MoD is quite rightly concerned that civilians are having firearms failures on its ranges and hand loads may be the cause.
If the Armed Forces have a weapon/firearm failure there are processes in place to investigate and quarantine the firearms and ammunition and take appropriate action. When a civilian has an incident on a MoD range, the club is required to report such incidents to the MoD and the MoD will request the NRA to carry out any investigation. These investigations are rigorous and take time and all must be patient and let the NRA carry them out. If the MoD decide that they will carry out any investigation you can bet that all civilian shooting will be suspended on Mod ranges until such investigations are carried out. Do you really want that to happen?
It is quite apparent that some people who reload are not as careful and scrupulous as others and it is these people who may ultimately have an effect on civilian access to ranges.
I predict that if the trend for firearms failures continues on MoD ranges and the cause is attributed to hand loads, then the MoD may insist on control measures being put in place to reduce the risk of such failures.
The NRA will then be in the position of having to do something to control such risk. That may be that everyone has to go on a certified and approved course and that course will have to be approved by the MoD. At present no such course exists and who would write and deliver such a course? I don't have the answers but I am concerned that incidents are happening. None of us have an automatic right to shoot on MoD ranges and access in reality is on the whim of a single person within the MoD. The NRA will work tirelessly to retain what access we have to ranges but irresponsible attitudes by a small minority may have huge impact on the majority of shooters.

I foresee in the near future the MoD insisting that any person wishing to shoot on MoD ranges having to be a full individual member of the NRA just so that a full accountability trail is in place.
This would be highly controversial but it may be the only way that range access is maintained.

The bottom line is that it is all about risk management. The Mod can manage the risk of weapon/ ammunition failures if it is a serviceman but who manages the risk for civilians. At present that is handed over to that NRA but why should they manage the risk if some shooters who reload are irresponsible and have firearm/ammunition failures. Perhaps those that have failures should be denied access to ranges.

[karen]

Sorry, am I being thick as this is all I can find.

Look at pages 11 onward but the main bit said by Chief executive is on page 13

I would copy it out but it is a pdf of a scanned document and I have a pizza to make and it would take ages to type!

[phaedra1106]

Karen, if you ever need to copy text from a PDF or other image type file this site is free and you can then cut and paste the text into Word or whatever you use.

http://www.free-ocr.com/

[Sim G]

I foresee in the near future the MoD insisting that any person wishing to shoot on MoD ranges having to be a full individual member of the NRA just so that a full accountability trail is in place.

Well could that be the money spinner the NRA are looking for....?

Mystic Meg prediction or "inside" information?

[karen]

Just to stop the next rumour that is NOT "inside" information sign01

[kennyc]

SteveE
you mention a trend for failures of firearms on MOD ranges continues there will repercussions, would you mind enlightening us as to how many and what type of failures you are alluding to?
also what percentage of these failures are due to dangerous practises as opposed to mechanical failure due to age or construction?
how do these figure relate to the overall numbers of shots fired without problem? without context figures can be misunderstood and misused.
Maggot and others have asked about the lack of a reporting mechanism to allow dissemination of failure reports to the general shooting community, do you know if the NRA or even the MOD have such a system in place, or plans to implement such a system?

[Steve E]

I foresee in the near future the MoD insisting that any person wishing to shoot on MoD ranges having to be a full individual member of the NRA just so that a full accountability trail is in place.

Well could that be the money spinner the NRA are looking for....?

Mystic Meg prediction or "inside" information?

If you knew anything about the way the MoD operate you would not say that. Anyone who has 'served' and understands the MoD mindset would know that civilian shooting is a complete pain in the arse to them. We shoot at the MoDs discretion.The plug could be pulled on us at a moments notice and there would be nothing that we/the NRA could do about it.

The NRA is not out to make money from this. Making money is a trivial consideration compared with keeping civilian shooters on MoD ranges.

[Steve E]

Kenny C
It matters not how many incidents there are or what caused them. They create work and worry and the MoD can solve the problem very easily from their point of view by just stopping us shooting.