Repealing the Firearms (Amendment) No.2 Act

[dromia]

Nfrancis you are fully entitled to your opinion on this however anti shooting and gun ownership it may be.

I do have a question for you about your views on this, I understand that you have a position of responsibility in the gallery rifle organisation and as such have input to the NRA. I trust that if and when you put your view forwards around these tables that you are very clear that they are your own unique opinions which have not been tested for support by the shooting community?

From the responses to your posts on the subject here it would seem that your divisive opinions have little traction amongst sensible shooters, who understand the reality of firearms legislation as applied to us.

[Geek]

It has to be section 1, there is no logic for it to be otherwise or we do our argument a disservice.

It also gives the frippery as a fall back.

I agree completely, no point having pistols back but with much more restrictions on what we already have.

If we get pistols back, even .22, great if not I would not want to give any further concessions.

To be able to complete in three gun comps would be good!

[ordnance]

Hmm - shoot Air Pistol or .22 free - both available now without any changes in the law. They will test the skillset you describe - as will LBR or LBP or BP pistols to a similar extent. And with the former you can even run for Olympic competitions - the most politically correct shooting you can get.

That's like saying if you shoot air rifle why the need for shooting .22 rimfire are any full bore calibre. As They will test the skillset for any other rifle.

So what do you want pistols back for? What would you do with them that you can't do now if you took shooting up as a sport?

Full bore pistol target shooting. ( police pistol competition) (International Practical Shooting Confederation) etc .

[Sandgroper]

So what do you want pistols back for? What would you do with them that you can't do now if you took shooting up as a sport?

That's the first question I'd be asking if I was your local MP, neighbor or work colleague you were proffering this idea to?

What would be the answer?

Well, firstly, I don't shoot for sport - I shoot for enjoyment primarily as well as providing a bit of pest/vermin control.

Secondily, I'm not the best shot with a pistol and never will be, but I find the challenge enjoyable. I've also tried air pistols, ML and LBR and to be honest they're poor substitutes.

So, what I'd really like is to own and shoot a pistol or revolver with a bit of history (like most of my rifles) and before you mention S7, I live in the NE of Scotland which is not an option up here - unless you can tell me differently.

[Gaz]

What specifically are you referring to and what makes you think that repealing one ammendment automatically envokes restrictions not originally enacted?

Sections 11-14 of the 1997 No.1 Act: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/199 ... ls/enacted

and sections 19-31 of the same: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/199 ... II/enacted

Section 11 makes it an offence punishable with 10 years in jail for having a pistol outside the premises of a licensed pistol club.

Section 12 imposes statutory conditions on FAC holders with pistols (must be pistol club member, target shooting only, only to be stored on club premises). It also allows for extra harsh sentences to be imposed for breaches of conditions.

Section 13 says you must apply for a police permit each and every time you want to take your pistol off the club premises. It seems to be written so as to operate an FAC-within-an-FAC scheme where you must provide good reason to move the pistol off the premises, e.g. for competitions or repair by an RFD. Only "approved" competitions (by Secretary of State, so in practice devolved to police FLDs) constitute "good reason". It seems these permits were intended to operate inside the FAC system so as to disapply the protections of appeals, court review, etc that FACs and SGCs have against unreasonable conditions, and make it more difficult to stage competitions or move pistols around.

Section 14 is just the transitional arrangements for the above to come into force.

Section 19 creates the concepts of "licensed" pistol clubs and "licensed" premises. There is no mention of Home Office Approval for pistol clubs, nor the range approval process we're all familiar with. I'd guess HOA wouldn't apply to pistol clubs and range approval would operate as before.

Section 20 makes it an offence for clubs to allow pistols to be fired on their ranges unless they are held on club members' FACs and the members' certificates/permits are conditioned to allow them to be fired there. Translation: if you want to shoot anywhere but your home range you need to apply for a variation.

Club pistols are allowed and club members without pistols on their tickets can use the club guns, as per rifle clubs.

Section 21 deals with licensing of pistol clubs. In brief, the authorities can restrict the use of the club premises to being a pistol range only (I'm guessing to stop pistol ranges being installed at home or in shared-use buildings such as leisure centres). They can also disapply the "club members can use club guns" provision if they feel like it. Applying for a pistol club licence costs £150.

Section 22 imposes the usual security requirements on pistol club premises - "satisfying the chief officer of police" and so on.

Section 23 allows the secretary of state to put conditions on club licences and makes it an offence not to comply. They include conditions on storage and use.

Section 24 says the pistol club licence lasts for six years, but allows the secretary of state to shorten that by order (in the form of a statutory instrument) whenever he feels like it, thus removing the safeguard of forcing ministers to go to Parliament for approval.

Section 25 allows the SofS to vary a pistol club licence whenever he feels like it. There are no controls, safeguards or consultation measures whatsoever restricting this power.

Section 26 allows for revocation by the SofS. This includes an automatic surrender provision which allow the police to confiscate pistols owned by club members which are stored on the premises if the club licence is revoked. It also permits the police to part-revoke FACs affected by such a revocation. The only provision for getting them back is to go through an application process, including written statements, that is worded widely enough to potentially allow the police to go through what amounts to a fresh FAC grant procedure.

There is a dodgy provision in subsection 5 which states that pistol club members who have pistols at a licensed club after its licence has been revoked (ie. in the time period between revocation and surrendering the pistols) "shall not be guilty of an offence under this or the 1968 Act", which by implication opens the doors for prosecution under any other law that can be made to fit.

Section 27 is an odd one. Subsection 1 seems to me to stipulate that pistol club members without an FAC must be explicitly authorised in writing by the police to handle club guns. Moreover, subsection 4 seems to restrict this to 28 days from the first time they handle a pistol. The rest of the section also states that such members "must be supervised by an officer of the club", which I guess means committee member.

Possible translation: new members must be explicitly police authorised and cannot remain functional non-FAC members (or FAC members without a pistol on ticket) of a pistol club for longer than one month. This seems to be aimed at forcing people to buy pistols (and go through the pistol permit palaver) or be prohibited from coming into contact with them at all. I'm thinking the intent here was to strangle the pipeline of new pistol club members by stopping them from shooting club guns only.

Section 28 imposes an armoury requirement which looks very similar to how military armouries operate. A pistol register must be kept at the club premises with the member's details, details of their pistols, a note of the date they were first stored at the club, a copy of any police permit to move the pistol away from the club, and the date of return, all to be updated within 24 hours of any movement.

Section 29 allows the secretary of state to make regulations (by statutory instrument) on exactly how pistol clubs operate and to create prison sentences for breaches of those regs. Such regs may further restrict new members' access to pistols (see section 27) and how club committees may operate.

Section 30 allows the police (including PCSOs - it says "civilian officer") to enter a pistol club without a warrant and inspect anything they like at any time.

Section 31 says "thou shalt not tell porkies about any of the above on pain of jail".

[nfrancis]

Nfrancis you are fully entitled to your opinion on this however anti shooting and gun ownership it may be.

I do have a question for you about your views on this, I understand that you have a position of responsibility in the gallery rifle organisation and as such have input to the NRA. I trust that if and when you put your view forwards around these tables that you are very clear that they are your own unique opinions which have not been tested for support by the shooting community?

From the responses to your posts on the subject here it would seem that your divisive opinions have little traction amongst sensible shooters, who understand the reality of firearms legislation as applied to us.

There isn't a Gallery Rifle Organization. The Gallery Rifle & Pistol discipline has representation on the NRA Council as an officially recognized NRA discipline. As such, NRA members who list the GR&P discipline as their primary one can vote for a representative to sit on NRA General Council to deal with all matters GR&P. From an NRA Council point of view I am simply one of numerous discipline reps. When the NPA folded the NRA took on what is now GR&P. It nearly didn't happen but it did and people can now shoot GR nationally and internationally.

Outside of the arguably insular world of the NRA the Gallery Rifle Community is essentially a chunk of whats left of the old Pistol Shooting Community. I'm shooting the same competitions with the same people now using GR and LBR etc as I did ~20 years ago using pistol.

The questions I pose are very mild and obvious ones the likes of which my MP, neighbor or work colleague, all of which are very sensible people (and non-shooters), would simply pose to me if I suggested to them the law should be changed to allow me to own pistols again.

If sensible shooters don't know how to handle these questions from within their own communities above and beyond labeling such people 'antis' then we are probably not going to get much past first base in this arena. If you seriously think I'm 'anti' because I ask or post a few (seemingly) politically incorrect opinions I can't help that.

To progress in any of this the shooting community has to be able to address these issues. That have to present themselves sensibly, consistently and rationally. And they have to respect the fact that the vast majority of people in this country don't particularly like or understand guns and why people want to own them.

[ordnance]

Handguns are sec 1 here, if they came with the conditions above I would be handing mine in.

To progress in any of this the shooting community has to be able to address these issues. That have to present themselves sensibly, consistently and rationally. And they have to respect the fact that the vast majority of people in this country don't particularly like or understand guns and why people want to own them.

Posts already have answered why they would like handguns, for target shooting just like rifle target shooting, clay pigeon shooting. Maybe its other shooting enthusiasts need convincing about people owning handguns , before worrying about the rest of the population.

[nfrancis]

That's like saying if you shoot air rifle why the need for shooting .22 rimfire are any full bore calibre. As They will test the skillset for any other rifle.

Perhaps... so how would you answer that?

So what do you want pistols back for? What would you do with them that you can't do now if you took shooting up as a sport?

Full bore pistol target shooting. ( police pistol competition) (International Practical Shooting Confederation) etc .[/quote]

OK - thats exactly why I'd want to shoot pistols. So do you shoot these events now? Do you partake in competitions overseas (because you have to) or in N Ireland, Jersey etc? Do you shoot IPSC comps with available equipment now (because you have no other choice)?

Etc....

[Sim G]

et al.

Thing is though Gaz, this Ammendment to the Act was in itself repealed by the 1997 No2 Ammendment, brought by the new Labour government in Dec 97. So if already appealed, how can it be "reverted" to? I think you may be over complicating it a bit, which, given the whole gamut of our firearms legislation, is easy to do. Hence, a completely new Act is the way forward...

[ordnance]

OK - thats exactly why I'd want to shoot pistols. So do you shoot these events now? Do you partake in competitions overseas (because you have to) or in N Ireland, Jersey etc? Do you shoot IPSC comps with available equipment now (because you have no other choice)?

I shoot some of the competitions here in N Ireland. There are plenty of clubs that shoot handgun competitions.

Do you shoot IPSC comps with available equipment now (because you have no other choice)?

I am not sure what you mean by that, I shoot handguns because I enjoy it , and use my own equipment.