New factory Lapua .308 ammunition

[ovenpaa]

DM, the 170 Lockbase has been around for many years even though it is not particularly well documented. I picked up a 1000 or so from Peter Lawman probably around 2005 and he said then that he had been sitting on them for a while, certainly they were very cheap at the time.

[Dangermouse]

That's what I am reading.

It would appear that as a FMJ it doesn't have the hollow point - as required by millitary if not law users.
As a result it is a good sniper round but it has not been able to out perform the likes of Berger and SMK in the target shooting applications.
Interesting then that they are using it in a 300 meter round.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that they are getting rid of stock that no one wants, just confirming that there is not a projectile that could be viable in F class.

DM

[Meaty]

I have been using the 170grain Lockbase for a few years and they are my bullet of choice in 308. I managed to tune a load that I am happy to use out to 1000 yards, having had more consistent success with it than any of my previous trials with various Sierra, Hornady and PPU offerings-could be down to the fact that I am also honing my reloading and shooting skills more now than before but they give me confidence. I haven't tried the latest fancy Bergers etc but I am my rifle wont ever win league matches so I dont see any point in spending £££,s more on my glorified plinking ammo.
They are a bit sensitive to seating depth but once you have sussed that, then they are a good un

[Sandgroper]

That's what I am reading.

It would appear that as a FMJ it doesn't have the hollow point - as required by millitary if not law users.
As a result it is a good sniper round but it has not been able to out perform the likes of Berger and SMK in the target shooting applications.
Interesting then that they are using it in a 300 meter round.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that they are getting rid of stock that no one wants, just confirming that there is not a projectile that could be viable in F class.

DM

To be fair the blog doesn't say it's a 300m round just that Lapua says that it routinely achieves sub moa at 300m.

Yes, the military doesn't use hollow point ammo but they can use 'open tip' target ammo like http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010 ... mmunition/ or the Mk 262 mod 1 which uses 77gn SMKs but there isn't any reason for LE not to use expanding bullets.

[Laurie]

The US military Judge Advocate General has ruled that HPBT Match bullets are war-legal under the Hague Convention rules on expanding projectiles, only the US military don't like the phrase 'hollow-point' and always refer to the design as 'Open-Tip Match' or OTM for short. Many (most? / everybody other than the US?) countries apparently don't agree and stick to the FMJBT form in their sniper ammunition.

Lapua has made high-quality FMJBT bullets for decades, the B4xx ('Lock-Base') and D (rebated boattail) series amongst the best bullets on the market at one time for TR and similar, but now restricted to a couple of 0.308-inch models it seems, the 170gn B476 and 185gn D46, the 200gn D-series bullet (for subsonic loads) which was available at least a couple of years back no longer listed. Back in the 80s and early 90s, the 150gn B-series lock-base bullets were very popular amongst handloading TR shooters for short and mid-range matches. It was believed that they stabilised quicker than HPBTM models such as the Scenar.

I imagine though that the reason Lapua continued with these design, and still does so in a more limited range, is largely driven my its military ammunition sales of sniper ammunition for customers uncomfortable with the OTM type.

So far as applicability to medium / long-range shooting applications is concerned, Ovenpaa is spot on in saying that it's bullet shape that determines suitability, not any given weight. Berger makes three 168s that all perform at long ranges especially the recently introduced Hybrid. With a class leading i7 (G7 form factor) value of 0.953 (ie nearly 5% less drag than the very efficient G7 'reference design') and a G7 BC of 0.266, that's well ahead of the elderly Sierra 175gn MatchKing design that many erroneously assume is a state of the art bullet in ballistic terms. (The 175 SMK has an i7 value of 1.085 and G7 BC of 0.243, while a form factor lower than 1.0 is highly desirable in any bullet loaded in .308 Win for shooting at 800 yards and beyond on the small F-Class target.) The 168gn SMK is a short-range design and does very well in that role, likewise the many similar designs introduced by its competitors - but there is no 'rule' that says that there is something 'wrong' with 168 or 170gn weight.

The 'ancient' Lapua 170gn B476 FMJBT 'Lock-Base' interestingly manages to outperform its brand new Scenar L competitor, in external ballistic terms at any rate. Lapua lists the B476 as having a G7 BC of 0.249 compared to the brand new (I've yet to see one in the UK to date) GB550 175gn Scenar L at 0.247. There is more to bullet design than BCs alone and Lapua may have gone for features that degrade the form factor / BC to enhance long-range trans and sub-sonic stability / performance, but it seems a little odd that the company's state of the art (2012) design is less efficient than a 30 or 40 year old military model! The GB550 is also 'poor' in relation to Berger designs, the superb 175gn Long-Range BT model being 0.264 and the deliberately blunter 175gn Tactical OTM (designed to perform at 1K in 1-11.25 twist barrels at 2,600 fps when trans / sub-sonic at very long ranges) manages 0.259.

As pointed out, the B476 is a cheap bullet (if you can find any as the main importer Hannams Reloading discontinued the design and sold its remaining stocks off at a large discount about two years ago) and if your barrel likes it makes a great short / mid-range bullet. I imagine that when we do see the 175gn GB550 Scenar L, it will not be a cheap bullet and will be up in the Berger price bracket. Being an 'L', it will be very well made, but it'll remain best used in mid-range F/TR and similar.

[zeroveez]

"the US military don't like the phrase 'hollow-point'" Is that why the latest Sierra 155gr match bullets have what look like very "closed " points?

[Maggot]

The 155, 168 & 175 are all well documented.

Exactly, and all these weights work well all through the ranges. The only exception is that the boat-tail angle used by the Sierra 168 SMK (and it's clones) causes instability at long range, but that is nothing to do with the weight (though it is a common misconception that "any 168 grain bullet won't work at long range"). There is no sudden weight gap between 155 and 175 that 'doesn't work' at long range. In fact even the Sierra 168 is great to 600 yards with moderate beans.

..

Like you say Rox, there are a whole wad of 168s that go gag ga as they decelerate through transonic, not just the 168SMK, it is down to the boat tail angle being too steep, although the 168SMK is well known, the weight connection seems to have been taken as red.

At one point near enough the whole range of one manufacturers bullet suffered from this by all accounts (according to an article by Laurie Holland quite a while back).

At the 168SMK was well received and performed well so it got copied...then they all realised what happened at the 900-1000 point, which was a bit academic as it was not designed to do long ranges anyway emrolleyes

Its worth reading Laurie's series on reloading the .308, it turned into a monster as I think he realised just how much there was to the 7.62x51/.308, it was being developed a lot by the F/TR guys at the time so was a hot topic.

Its interesting when you see nowdays with an F/TR or Palma rig just how easy it is to get them going quickly...then of course you have to make them behave clapclap

I do find it an endless source of amusement when I hear long range shots being referd to as egotistical, and it usually makes me giggle when folk turn up and shoot short barrelled hunting numbers in .308 at 1000 and we have to play hunt the hole.

Nothing egotistical about it...challenging and satisfying yes....but ego wise it is no different to any other competitive sport.

You need the gear to do the job, and that includes bullets...if you can get/afford the damned things!!

I am looking forward to trying out the HBCs from Foxy as by all accounts they should go well in my rifle.

[ovenpaa]

Eunice, I will have to amble along to the 1000 yard point with a 24" barrelled rifle sometime this year and see how I get on with you F/TR types.

Hunt the hole eh... :lol:

[Maggot]

"the US military don't like the phrase 'hollow-point'" Is that why the latest Sierra 155gr match bullets have what look like very "closed " points?

Not really

Hollow point and match bullets are entirely different chap.

Hollow point in the true sense of the word has a huge hole on the end and is designed to expand and impart as much energy to the recipient as possible.

They are often seen used in hand guns, hunting rifles, and special purpose kit designed not to over penetrate.

The meplat (hollow tip) of the match bullet is a by product of its building.

They are built back to front as it makes it easier to create an accurate bullet this way, they are not designed to expand but like any bullet are capable of doing so. Some folk (me included) then go to great lengths to reduce this "meplat" through pointing which has its own series or pros and cons and advatages.

I took a file to a .308 2155 (old palma) 155gr SMK a few weeks back just to see how small the void was, its tiny, and I doubt it would have much expanding effect to eb fair, particularly when you see how thick teh jacket is compared with boggo FMJ.

I had heard that the reason the standard boat tail was made as it was because it was not hollow point, more likely because it was cheaper.

They have used match bullets in US military loads and if the example I have of a military .338 Lapmag is correct so do we.

Funilly enough I had no idea that the standard RG 5.56 roind had a steel tip as standard until I attacked it with a file. Nothing to do with penetration, I understood it to do with the lead arse overtaking the tip on impact, thus doing more damage, but not expanding...eh

[Maggot]

Eunice, I will have to amble along to the 1000 yard point with a 24" barrelled rifle sometime this year and see how I get on with you F/TR types.

Hunt the hole eh... :lol:

Yea, well we did try putting fur rount it!!

And those we found were sideways.

As long as its a .308 hunting number with factory ammo feel free dave.....like for like, none of your stoked up, sub calibre go faster muck you bloody cheat :55:

PS...where's my bloody tumbler???????? :55: