A lot of NDs

[Blu]

ordnance.

As every situation is different it's impossible to back up a statement like that

Yep and that's why I wrote "By which time you could either be wounded or dead." The key word there being "could"

Some situations you would have plenty of time to load a round into the chamber something that would take around a second or two.

Yep agreed and some situations you don't have those one or two seconds to chamber a round, actually I just had the wife time me and it took more than one or two seconds to pull the gun, pull the slide back and bring it up to the fire position.

So its up to the individual what way he would carry a firearm as it would be him that would face the consequences.

Hey I completely agree but I'll bet you'll be hard pushed to find anyone that will carry a gun in that condition so I'll stand by my original statement.

Blu

[ordnance]

Yep and that's why I wrote "By which time you could either be wounded or dead." The key word there being "could"

Fair point its the carry it my way or no way something that I regularly read on American forums that irritate me. You get the old clichés, a unloaded forearm is a paper weight etc. As far as I am concerned its up to the individual to decide on what way to carry. While we are on the subject of N/S-S the chances of having one obviously goes up when you put a round in the chamber. You caint have a N,D if there is no round in the chamber. That's one reason that the first thing that an American soldier is told when he arrives in Afghanistan for example. When on base all firearms magazine in rifle no round in chamber and that's in a war zone.

[IainWR]

You caint have a N,D if there is no round in the chamber.

That's true, but I was in the vicinity for two NDs with a Browning Hi-Power and both were caused by getting the "ease springs" routine wrong after the "unload and show clear" routine because there was an order that we were only issued with one mag which came charged from the armoury and had to be returned in the same state and therefore because of the design of the weapon you had to put the charged mag on the gun to ease springs and one error of sequencing, which is one of the most difficult types of HF* (where are you A1?) error to avoid, and you had an ND. In other words, one of the significant processes in one class of NDs is the act of inadvertantly putting a round in the chamber. Both of the NDs I was around occured in the early hours of the morning after a stressful night - over 8 hours strapped to a rather uncomfortable machine doing a difficult and mildly dangerous job at a time when the human body is at its lowest alertness, and the supervising staff on the ground were bored s***less having done absolutely nothing between seeing our weapons out at 8pm and seeing them back at 5am.

Oh, and I had my one ND when, the very first time I took a Sterling on the range, I didn't pull the cocking lever all the way back, but I did get past the back of the first cartridge in the mag, so when I let go the block wasn't engaged on the sear, it flew forward, stripped the first round from the mag and the fixed firing pin worked as designed when the whole assembly arrived in battery. That's another gun where the design is, IMHO**, fundamentally flawed - if you applied aviation safety standards to it it would never have made it past prototype in that condition.














*HF = Human Factors, what is called Pilot Error by the popular press.
**IMHO = In My Humble Opinion
*** = hit

Maybe A1 hasn't looked this far down.

[Blu]

ordnance, okay lets look at the whole carry concealed thing. First of it's concealed carry which means it is hidden out of view under clothing.

1. If needs be you have to reach under the clothing to get the firearm, which takes a couple of seconds

2. If one doesn't have a round in the chamber then after reaching under clothing to get at the gun one now needs to cock it and bring it up to the aim, something which takes a couple of more seconds to happen. All those seconds mount up mate. Tell you what, go get something to simulate a pistol and stick it in your waistband, now then go put on a winter time coat and when you have done that get someone to time you and see how long it takes to get at your simulated pistol. Go through the motions of pulling the slide back and then take aim at something, you still think it only takes a couple of seconds?

While we are on the subject of N/S-S the chances of having one obviously goes up when you put a round in the chamber.

Yep and on the other hand your chances of getting wounded or killed increase as well because you had to faff about making ready and bringing it up to aim and fire.

To a degree I'll agree with you on that, thing is though and speaking for myself only I have been carrying for many years with a round chambered at all times and I have never had an ND. The reason I have never had an ND is because I practice, practice and then practice some more plus I don't fcuk about with any gun be loaded or unloaded, lets face it the majority of ND's happens through not checking the state of the gun, lack of proper training, not concentrating on what one is doing or simply some idiot messing around with a gun.

When on base all firearms magazine in rifle no round in chamber and that's in a war zone.

Yep I am well aware of the rules on base, thing is though a soldier on a base is surrounded by friendlies (as long as there are no Afghan soldiers or cops around) and doesn't need to have his rifle cocked and locked, it's the same here in my house, no need to have a weapon cocked and locked. Go out on the streets though be it here or in Afghanistan then it's a whole different ball game. Personally I will never try and tell anyone how to carry their concealed pistol, as you say that is personal preference but as far as I'm concerned when I carry the gun is always in condition 2 and like I have already said, never had an ND yet and I won't either

Blu

[froggy]

re-

Fred Perrin famously said that in balance he'd prefer to face a agressor armed with a pistol that one with knife in a "street" confrontation. I thk that speaks volume for the need for the shooter to be able to face the staber's threat with minimum reaction time, implying a cond 2 / round chambered + hammer down. I am due for a simunition W-E training soon and I thk that will be one of the scenario covered. I'll let you know if I die stabbed or shot first

[kennyc]

re-

Fred Perrin famously said that in balance he'd prefer to face a agressor armed with a pistol that one with knife in a "street" confrontation. I thk that speaks volume for the need for the shooter to be able to face the staber's threat with minimum reaction time, implying a cond 2 / round chambered + hammer down. I am due for a simunition W-E training soon and I thk that will be one of the scenario covered. I'll let you know if I die stabbed or shot first

an acquaintance of mine was a serving Police officer down on the Mexican border in South TX, he told me one night of his latest training course, they took turns to be the attacker and defender, in the whole day he never managed to get his pistol into use before the "attacker" stuck him with the rubber knife! just go's to show how even a trained professional can't always get a concealed pistol into play ! although he did say he might have done better if he hadn't been wearing his cowboy boots sign01

[tackb]

I would imagine that knives are used for intimidation first ? in which case being able to draw a handgun and shoot your assailant would weight the encounter in your favour?

fwiw , I used to own various handguns before the idiot government stole them from us and if I had to choose one to stake my life on it would be the glock , if you want to shoot something point it and pull the trigger if you don't keep your finger off the trigger and don't point it at stuff? simples.

it's dicking about with firearms that causes ND's not the firearm.

[kennyc]

I would imagine that knives are used for intimidation first ? in which case being able to draw a handgun and shoot your assailant would weight the encounter in your favour?

fwiw , I used to own various handguns before the idiot government stole them from us and if I had to choose one to stake my life on it would be the glock , if you want to shoot something point it and pull the trigger if you don't keep your finger off the trigger and don't point it at stuff? simples.

it's dicking about with firearms that causes ND's not the firearm.

the point being, if the knife is in your ribs you won't be pulling any guns out ! people underestimate the lethal range of a determined person with a knife!

[kennyc]

link re knife lethality v guns




gratuitous link to film WARNING!! LANGUAGE!

[tackb]

I would imagine that knives are used for intimidation first ? in which case being able to draw a handgun and shoot your assailant would weight the encounter in your favour?

fwiw , I used to own various handguns before the idiot government stole them from us and if I had to choose one to stake my life on it would be the glock , if you want to shoot something point it and pull the trigger if you don't keep your finger off the trigger and don't point it at stuff? simples.

it's dicking about with firearms that causes ND's not the firearm.

the point being, if the knife is in your ribs you won't be pulling any guns out ! people underestimate the lethal range of a determined person with a knife!

The point being that there is usually threatening and posturing before most closure to violence , that is the time to draw your handgun and make ready(by make ready I mean point it at your assailants centre mass) , if it's a surprise stab in the ribs without pre indicators there is little you can do training or not , and the carry condition of your handgun is irrelevant !