Challenging unsafe behaviour

[zzr1100]

Sorry folks .. Should have given more information .. Was a bit distracted .. I washed my sgc !!
The two lads were there with a youngster about 9 ish who wasn't shooting .. I offed a go of the .410 my daughter was using, they were keen on this but asked me to stand in the cage with the youngster and help him .. After youngster had shot they then insisted my daughter had her go .. We then moved on ... It was just before we moved on that I had a "quiet word" which was taken in good stead with an apology .. I got the impression that they were novices .. I
Don't know ..
At some clay shoots you can just turn up and push buttons for an auto trap . Doesn't mean you're safe or know what you're doing ???

[Chapuis]

"Indicates a 'possibility', rather than proves?"

Sevensixtwo the firearms are also checked by the RO and proven safe before they are laid down action open.

Just my opinion but yes I do believe that the M.O.D. have got it slightly wrong. I have shot with the forces and with civilian clubs/associations and on the whole I think that the methods adopted by a properly run club or association are safer.

[IainWR]

NRA Handbook, rule 122 - unload drills

Inspection of Firearms and Magazines

a Firer’s responsibilities
The firer is responsible for ensuring both that his firearm is clear and that it is independently inspected in accordance with this rule before it is removed from the firing point. The action of “unloading” in this rule requires that, before inspection, such of the following actions as are possible for the firearm type have been carried out:

i Safety catch applied.
ii Magazine removed.
iii Integral magazine / cylinder emptied.
iv Chamber and action cleared of rounds, misfires and empty cases.
v Working parts fully open and locked.

The formal unload procedure for a Service Weapon may require additional steps after the inspection. Any firer who fails to present his firearm for inspection whether called to do so or not, or who presents his firearm for inspection in an unsafe condition, may be considered as “acting in a way that might prove dangerous” and be dealt with as in Para 546.

b Person Designated to inspect
The responsibility to carry out inspections falls to a specific individual. By default, the inspection should be carried out by the CRO or a member of the range staff to whom the CRO delegates the responsibility. The following concessions are permitted, subject to any overriding instruction by the CRO or range staff:

i In a team event where a coach is present on the firing point, the coach may carry out the inspection.
ii In individual competition, or in team competition if no coach is present, the register keeper may carry out the inspection.
iii Individuals outside competition may have their firearm inspected by any person sharing range space with them.

In all cases where a concession is invoked, the person inspecting must look down the barrel from the breech end and observe that the action and chamber are clear, and the firer must dismantle the firearm to the extent necessary to permit such observation. It remains the firer’s responsibility to ensure that the person inspecting does so.

c Procedure
On the conclusion of a shoot or stage, or on the order of the (C)RO, all firers must:

i unload their firearm and inspect the chamber, action, boltface and magazine (if one is fitted) to ensure that the firearm is clear,
ii if requesting inspection by a person other than the CRO or a range official, dismantle their firearm to the extent necessary to permit a clear view through the chamber and barrel,
iii present their firearm to the designated person on the firing point and have them inspect and confirm that the firearm is clear,
iv for a Service Weapon complete the unload in accordance with the current Service procedure,
v either keep the bolt removed or insert a breech flag (or both) for any bolt-action rifle, or carry out the equivalent procedure for other firearms (which may include casing in accordance with GR&P procedure)

before leaving the firing point and before anyone goes forward of the firing point.

d Comment
The practical results of the above rule are that any firearm other than a bolt action or break-action firearm should for simplicity be inspected by the CRO or an official on his behalf, and that if a firer requires a bolt-action firearm to be inspected by anyone other than the CRO or an official on his behalf, the firer must remove the bolt.

NRA Handbook rule 123 - carrying firearms

A firer using a bolt-action rifle must carry it either with the breech open and a breech flag, which must protrude into the chamber, clearly inserted, or with the bolt removed from the rifle, except when on the firing point. Para 113 applies.

As an exception to the above civilian service rifles or practical rifles which are able to utilise a magazine fitted loading block which locks the working parts to the rear may do so.

Unless GR&P rules apply, a firer using a self-loading rifle must carry it unloaded, ie no magazine on it, no round in the chamber, working parts forward, not cocked and safety catch at ‘safe’.

Firearms specified in the NRA GR&P Handbook (published separately) must be carried in accordance with GR&P rules.

[Ginger]

Thank you for this Iain, it doesn't hurt if I am honest for all of us to be reminded of range safety and procedures from time to time. As every one has said, softly softly at first.

NRA Handbook, rule 122 - unload drills

Inspection of Firearms and Magazines

a Firer’s responsibilities
The firer is responsible for ensuring both that his firearm is clear and that it is independently inspected in accordance with this rule before it is removed from the firing point. The action of “unloading” in this rule requires that, before inspection, such of the following actions as are possible for the firearm type have been carried out:

i Safety catch applied.
ii Magazine removed.
iii Integral magazine / cylinder emptied.
iv Chamber and action cleared of rounds, misfires and empty cases.
v Working parts fully open and locked.

The formal unload procedure for a Service Weapon may require additional steps after the inspection. Any firer who fails to present his firearm for inspection whether called to do so or not, or who presents his firearm for inspection in an unsafe condition, may be considered as “acting in a way that might prove dangerous” and be dealt with as in Para 546.

b Person Designated to inspect
The responsibility to carry out inspections falls to a specific individual. By default, the inspection should be carried out by the CRO or a member of the range staff to whom the CRO delegates the responsibility. The following concessions are permitted, subject to any overriding instruction by the CRO or range staff:

i In a team event where a coach is present on the firing point, the coach may carry out the inspection.
ii In individual competition, or in team competition if no coach is present, the register keeper may carry out the inspection.
iii Individuals outside competition may have their firearm inspected by any person sharing range space with them.

In all cases where a concession is invoked, the person inspecting must look down the barrel from the breech end and observe that the action and chamber are clear, and the firer must dismantle the firearm to the extent necessary to permit such observation. It remains the firer’s responsibility to ensure that the person inspecting does so.

c Procedure
On the conclusion of a shoot or stage, or on the order of the (C)RO, all firers must:

i unload their firearm and inspect the chamber, action, boltface and magazine (if one is fitted) to ensure that the firearm is clear,
ii if requesting inspection by a person other than the CRO or a range official, dismantle their firearm to the extent necessary to permit a clear view through the chamber and barrel,
iii present their firearm to the designated person on the firing point and have them inspect and confirm that the firearm is clear,
iv for a Service Weapon complete the unload in accordance with the current Service procedure,
v either keep the bolt removed or insert a breech flag (or both) for any bolt-action rifle, or carry out the equivalent procedure for other firearms (which may include casing in accordance with GR&P procedure)

before leaving the firing point and before anyone goes forward of the firing point.

d Comment
The practical results of the above rule are that any firearm other than a bolt action or break-action firearm should for simplicity be inspected by the CRO or an official on his behalf, and that if a firer requires a bolt-action firearm to be inspected by anyone other than the CRO or an official on his behalf, the firer must remove the bolt.

NRA Handbook rule 123 - carrying firearms

A firer using a bolt-action rifle must carry it either with the breech open and a breech flag, which must protrude into the chamber, clearly inserted, or with the bolt removed from the rifle, except when on the firing point. Para 113 applies.

As an exception to the above civilian service rifles or practical rifles which are able to utilise a magazine fitted loading block which locks the working parts to the rear may do so.

Unless GR&P rules apply, a firer using a self-loading rifle must carry it unloaded, ie no magazine on it, no round in the chamber, working parts forward, not cocked and safety catch at ‘safe’.

Firearms specified in the NRA GR&P Handbook (published separately) must be carried in accordance with GR&P rules.

[SevenSixTwo]

Sevensixtwo the firearms are also checked by the RO and proven safe before they are laid down action open.

Exposed to the elements... dust etc?

A 'loading block' for carrying? Whaaaaat?

I have some adapting to do when I join a civvi club, for sure!

[Gaz]

Sevensixtwo the firearms are also checked by the RO and proven safe before they are laid down action open.

Exposed to the elements... dust etc?

A 'loading block' for carrying? Whaaaaat?

I have some adapting to do when I join a civvi club, for sure!

Last round hold open. ;-)

I do agree with you on exposure to the elements etc, as well as FOD getting into the chamber via the stem of the breech flag. Less than ideal ... but then again, closing and firing off actions will inevitably lead to large numbers of NDs where firers aren't thoroughly trained and tested to the MoD standard. At least with the bolt open the thing physically can't go off!

[ptheta]

A couple of observations from my own experiences of Bisley.

Firstly, I have never seen anyone remove a magazine from a Lee Enfield of any type at Bisley as part of the unloading drill. That's clearly in contravention of the rules that Iain has posted as the magazines are removable.

Secondly, I shot an NRA CSR event and those rules were not followed then either instead the military style ease springs routine was followed.

Are they rules or guide lines?

[Blackstuff]

I agree that clay grounds, particularly ones where you're left to you own devices, generally have the worst examples unsafe gun handling :roll:

I prefer the 'proven' clear gun method used for Practical Shotgun which is a hybrid between civvie and military practices;

At the end of the stage the RO asks the shooter to show the gun is empty
Any cartridges are cycled out of the gun while its held pointed down range and the action is locked back
The RO inspects the chamber and magazine tube to confirm
Once confirmed the bolt is dropped forward and the trigger pulled (with the gun held in a fashion that you're EXPECTING it to go off)
The bolt is then re-locked back and safety applied

I appreciate that this could take quite a long time initially for an RCO with 30-40 shooters but once the shooter is well versed it takes less time than an RCO having to bend over to peer into a breech of a rifle on the ground

[Dougan]

closing and firing off actions will inevitably lead to large numbers of NDs where firers aren't thoroughly trained and tested to the MoD standard. At least with the bolt open the thing physically can't go off!

In the scenario I'm talking about (at the Trafalgar, where rifles are brought to and taken from the point cased) I really don't that NDs are 'inevitable' at all - Firstly you can't compete without a competency card (to MoD standard) - Then you check the rifle is clear yourself - Then you have to present it to the RO at an angle where he/she can have a good look down it, and if it's a magazined rifle they will poke a finger in to make sure...so it has been checked clear twice in quick succession by both a competent owner and a qualified RO...

...at this point I see no practical reason why when the rifle is then put back in the case/slip (which is on the floor pointing down the range) that the bolt can't be eased forward again without cocking it...

...this is the exact procedure at the Phoenix for Gallery rifle competitions; where after clearing (racking), the action is closed, hammer eased forward and then put in the case.

However, what I think is practical is irrelevant if it's not correct...so still need to confirm this...

[Dougan]

NRA Handbook, rule 122 - unload drills

Inspection of Firearms and Magazines

a Firer’s responsibilities
The firer is responsible for ensuring both that his firearm is clear and that it is independently inspected in accordance with this rule before it is removed from the firing point. The action of “unloading” in this rule requires that, before inspection, such of the following actions as are possible for the firearm type have been carried out:

i Safety catch applied.
ii Magazine removed.
iii Integral magazine / cylinder emptied.
iv Chamber and action cleared of rounds, misfires and empty cases.
v Working parts fully open and locked.

The formal unload procedure for a Service Weapon may require additional steps after the inspection. Any firer who fails to present his firearm for inspection whether called to do so or not, or who presents his firearm for inspection in an unsafe condition, may be considered as “acting in a way that might prove dangerous” and be dealt with as in Para 546.

b Person Designated to inspect
The responsibility to carry out inspections falls to a specific individual. By default, the inspection should be carried out by the CRO or a member of the range staff to whom the CRO delegates the responsibility. The following concessions are permitted, subject to any overriding instruction by the CRO or range staff:

i In a team event where a coach is present on the firing point, the coach may carry out the inspection.
ii In individual competition, or in team competition if no coach is present, the register keeper may carry out the inspection.
iii Individuals outside competition may have their firearm inspected by any person sharing range space with them.

In all cases where a concession is invoked, the person inspecting must look down the barrel from the breech end and observe that the action and chamber are clear, and the firer must dismantle the firearm to the extent necessary to permit such observation. It remains the firer’s responsibility to ensure that the person inspecting does so.

c Procedure
On the conclusion of a shoot or stage, or on the order of the (C)RO, all firers must:

i unload their firearm and inspect the chamber, action, boltface and magazine (if one is fitted) to ensure that the firearm is clear,
ii if requesting inspection by a person other than the CRO or a range official, dismantle their firearm to the extent necessary to permit a clear view through the chamber and barrel,
iii present their firearm to the designated person on the firing point and have them inspect and confirm that the firearm is clear,
iv for a Service Weapon complete the unload in accordance with the current Service procedure,
v either keep the bolt removed or insert a breech flag (or both) for any bolt-action rifle, or carry out the equivalent procedure for other firearms (which may include casing in accordance with GR&P procedure)

before leaving the firing point and before anyone goes forward of the firing point.

d Comment
The practical results of the above rule are that any firearm other than a bolt action or break-action firearm should for simplicity be inspected by the CRO or an official on his behalf, and that if a firer requires a bolt-action firearm to be inspected by anyone other than the CRO or an official on his behalf, the firer must remove the bolt.

NRA Handbook rule 123 - carrying firearms

A firer using a bolt-action rifle must carry it either with the breech open and a breech flag, which must protrude into the chamber, clearly inserted, or with the bolt removed from the rifle, except when on the firing point. Para 113 applies.

As an exception to the above civilian service rifles or practical rifles which are able to utilise a magazine fitted loading block which locks the working parts to the rear may do so.

Unless GR&P rules apply, a firer using a self-loading rifle must carry it unloaded, ie no magazine on it, no round in the chamber, working parts forward, not cocked and safety catch at ‘safe’.

Firearms specified in the NRA GR&P Handbook (published separately) must be carried in accordance with GR&P rules.

Iain; I fully understand (and comply with) the rules on 'Carrying' (i.e. flag in or bolt out), but am still a bit unsure of 'Procedure part v' - If you're in a competition with bolt action rifles where you're required to bring them to and from the point cased, once cleared can you ease the bolt forward and leave it closed in the case/slip (like GR&P), or should it still have the bolt out or a flag in after being cleared and cased?