FAC conditions and the law

[saddler]

Slightly different scenario - I have a 303 and 308 for target shooting only on approved ranges while a member of XYZ HO-approved club. If i booked a paid stalk and wanted to use either of my own rifles would I approach the firearms licensing people and ask for a temporary variation allowing me to use the rifle for that purpose and buy appropriate ammo, or just turn up with the rifle in question and use estate ammo?

either
1. Get a variation for your own rifle to allow you to use it, & allow you to buy appropriate ammo (though in England you can use A-max, so I believe)
or
2. turn up & use the estate rifle & ammo

[Chapuis]

Slightly different scenario - I have a 303 and 308 for target shooting only on approved ranges while a member of XYZ HO-approved club. If i booked a paid stalk and wanted to use either of my own rifles would I approach the firearms licensing people and ask for a temporary variation allowing me to use the rifle for that purpose and buy appropriate ammo, or just turn up with the rifle in question and use estate ammo?

You would be breaching the conditions on your certificate and anyone selling you expanding ammo would be breaking the law and as a result risking their own certificate also.

No Saddler you require expanding ammo for deer stalking in E&W and A-Max is not classed as designed to expand.

[Mr_Logic]

Not true. The law for England and Wales makes no mention whatsoever of the intended purpose of the bullet; merely its construction. The A max has a cavity in the nose (hollow nose) and also a softer plastic tip (soft point) which means it qualifies for use on deer on both counts specified in law.

Whether this is ethical or sensible is another debate; A max is legal for use on deer in England and Wales.

[saddler]

No Saddler you require expanding ammo for deer stalking in E&W and A-Max is not classed as designed to expand.

Thought as much....but folk on another forum assured me of the opposite!!

[Mr_Logic]

No Saddler you require expanding ammo for deer stalking in E&W and A-Max is not classed as designed to expand.

Thought as much....but folk on another forum assured me of the opposite!!

They were right! Your original view is quite correct.

Chapuis is wrong, for England and Wales. In Scotland, the intended purpose of the bullet is the key point, and as Amax is not sold as an expanding bullet, it is illegal to shoot deer in Scotland using the Amax.

[Chapuis]

A-Max is not legal for deer in E&W.

Ask the Home Office, ACPO, BASC and the NRA what their views on it are. You can't have it both ways it is classed as non expanding. It was never designed to expand Hornady have said this though in the past they actually suggested that it might be used for such but there again in many countries there is no requirement to use expanding ammuniion.

[Mr_Logic]

Chapuis. The views of all of the above are irrelevant, because what matters is clarification from a court. That said, I did speak with BASC about this - they were of the opinion that plastic tipped bullets are legal.

In the meantime, let's look at the factors.

There is one Act which governs this. It is the Deer Act 1991. It says:

[All bullets are illegal except] :
"Any bullet for use in a rifle other than a soft-nosed or hollow-nosed bullet."

There is no mention of whether the bullet is designed to expand or not; therefore it is irrelevant. Only the construction matters. The A-max has both a hollow point, and a soft nose, and is therefore included in the permissible bullets.

If you wish to argue that the Amax is illegal for use on deer in England and Wales, crack on, but you are also including the Nosler ballistic tip, Hornady SST and any other with a polymer nose. The intended purpose of a bullet is wholly irrelevant in England and Wales - it is only relevant in Scotland.

This is not an opinion - it is quoted from Chapter and Verse of the Law in question. If you can find legislation which supersedes or adds to the Deer Act, please show it; I cannot, so I shoot deer with an Amax, and they die quite nicely.

[Chapuis]

Sir we will therefore agree to disagree then.

Either a bullet is regarded as being of the expanding variety or it is regarded as being non expanding. I totally disagree with your view that the A-Max has both a hollow point and a soft point and obviously the NRA and BASC took the same view when in consultation with H.O. and ACPO it was agreed that the A-Max bullet should be accepted as being non expanding. Yes these bullets may have a small hole at the nose infilled with a polymer tip but the intention of their design was as match bullets much the same as a Sierra Matchking bullet which also has a hole in the nose but without the insert.

[Mr_Logic]

Sir we will therefore agree to disagree then.

Either a bullet is regarded as being of the expanding variety or it is regarded as being non expanding. I totally disagree with your view that the A-Max has both a hollow point and a soft point and obviously the NRA and BASC took the same view when in consultation with H.O. and ACPO it was agreed that the A-Max bullet should be accepted as being non expanding. Yes these bullets may have a small hole at the nose infilled with a polymer tip but the intention of their design was as match bullets much the same as a Sierra Matchking bullet which also has a hole in the nose but without the insert.

The same Sierra Matchking which is also perfectly legal for use on deer.

Whether or not the bullet is classified as Section 5 or not makes absolutely no difference to its legality for use on deer.

Whether the bullet is designed to expand makes no difference to its legality for use on deer.

It is there in black and white, it is not a matter for disagreement; it is a fact that a bullet with a hollow and/or soft nose is legal for use on deer.

The terms are not defined, so it must be taken literally. The Matchking has a hollow point, and thus is legal. Daft, yes, but legal nevertheless.

I agree that the two Acts are not harmonious and thus are confusing, but the Deer Act is the only one which applies to the shooting of Deer. The Firearms Acts do not directly apply.

[Dombo63]

SMK are not recommended for use on deer AFAIK. They might be legal according to a strict reading of the 1991 Act but there are plenty of better rounds available, such as the Game King. I can buy SMKs and other HPBT match ammo on my ticket for target shooting but not the expanding stuff. I also doubt I would be allowed to use SMKs by the gamekeeper/ghillie/stalker accompanying me.
But as ever, happy to be corrected as i'm new to all this.