newbie reloader - results and questions!

[Tomo]

I've only been reloading for a few months and I wanted to share some of the results that I've had with my reloads and to also ask for some help and advice from the more experienced forum members out there :)

I'm shooting a .308 Remington 700 SPS varmint in an AX stock, 26" barrel, 1:12 twist off of a bi-pod and rear bag (photo below).


The rifle seems to have quite a long throat, I've measured it at approx 2.94" using an empty casing with a bullet head pushed loosely into it (I've read that Remington .308 rifles generally have long leades) so I've assumed that loading close to the lands is going to be problematic.

I currently only get to shoot centrefire at Bisley - mainly 100M & 200M on Siberia and 600y on Century. I don't yet have enough confidence/skill to shoot any further!

Varget
I started by using the Lee manuals min recommended load for Varget (42g) with .168g SMK, PPU brass and CCI LR primers. I made up a batch at SAMMI length of 2.80" and went from there. I've experimented with different varget powder weights out to 45g and different lengths out to 2.83" and shot these at 100M @ 200M (no signs of pressure on any of these) . The best combination @ 100M so far has been 42.7g @ 2.82" (see below - I pulled one shot waiting for the stupid wind to die down! - squares on target = 1")


Vit 550
I couldn't get hold of any Varget, so I went halfs on a 1KG tub of N550 with a mate from my rifle club. I used it with some .168g SMK and .168g Hornady A-Max heads, PPU brass and CCI LR primers @ 2.82". I guessed that 42.7g of Varget was giving me approx 2557fps (I don't have access to a chrono) so I worked out that approx 44.5g of N550 should give me roughly similar performance @ 2554fps (using the figures in the Lee manual). I used these on a club visit to Short Siberia 100M range and both the SMK's and the A-Max bullets shot very well. If fact the center of the target got shot out and the markers had to put up white patches on a different part of the target to shoot at?!

IMR3031
I bought 1lb of this simply because my local RFD didn't have anything else in stock! I loaded most of my SMK .168g with 39.2g @ 2.82" & 2.83" to give me approx 2521fps. I also loaded a few more in batches up to 41.5g. I stuck the rest of the powder behind some .155g Palma match I'd bought to try. Results with the .168g were okay, the best seemed to be at the lower end of the scale, around 39.2g @ 2.82". It didn't like the .155g at all and failed to shoot any type of group.


Summary
I've stuck by and large to using .168g bullets, (mainly SMK's) PPU brass and CCI primers. I've read that .168g bullets should be okay out to 600 yards, although I have bought some 175g to try. I've now run out of CCI primers and could only get Federal as a replacement; I have however bought 1000 of these, so I should be okay for a while.

My main problem has been with getting enough powder to work up loads and experiment with. As of today none of my local dealers have any Varget in (I see Kranks have some back in stock, but it's very expensive once you've added the transport costs). I'd love to be able to just buy a load of Varget and carry on, but apart from the steep price of the stuff the supply of it into the UK seems a little patchy?!

There's a tiny bit of N550 about, however I've read that using it can reduce the life of your barrel, so am debating whether to get any more. I wasn't really that impressed with the IMR3031 (and my local store has run out any way!) .

I've tried to find some N140 but no-one local has any. I've contacted the suppliers of TR140 and am contemplating getting 2KG of this next time I head down to Bisley. In the mean time I've bought 1KG of N150 to try with .168g & .175g bullets.

I realize that this is all a bit random at the moment, but unless I can find a decent supply of powder I'm forced to buy whatevers available at the time. I'm hoping I can sort out a decent supply of TR140 that can keep me going through the summer. I've read some encouraging reports about the stuff and so hopefully I can find a load that my rifle will like.

Questions

Although some of the loads detailed above shoot well at 100M, I've found that they can be a bit hit and miss at longer distances. I've noticed that the necks on the last lot of cases I've used were a little 'sooty' and have read that this could be a sign of low pressure? Do I need to increase my powder weights for longer distances and to increase the pressure?


I've tried to stay at least .5 grains below max load for safety's sake, although when I've shot at 100M the bullets with more powder in had a larger spread so I've generally stuck with lower loads as it produces better accuracy at this distance.


None of my loads have shown any real signs of pressure, although I had a slightly stiffer bolt when using the higher loads of IMR3031.

My groups got worse as soon as I increased the length from 2.82" to 2.83". Do you think it's worth me experimenting with 2.84" and above (as long as they'll fit in the magazine!) to try and get the bullet closer to the lands?

[The Cupcake Kid]

I'm sure you'll get a lot of detailed replies to help you decide what to try next, but just to give you my thoughts having spent a lot of time testing different loads for my 700 (practically the same spec. as yours) my advice would be stick with the 168s if you don't intend to do any long range shooting any time soon (600yds or more) as these will give very good accuracy if you can find the right load for your gun.

The 175s are a good choice if you do want to try longer ranges (particularly 1000yds +) because they are just the right weight to allow you to work up a load which will give you a good velocity/pressure compromise and will also be suitable for magazine feeding, if required. With my 700, I settled on the Berger 175gn TOTM bullet with a powder such as Varget, TR140 or H4895/IMR4895.

I wouldn't really worry too much at this stage if you're not close to the lands. The problem with a factory rifle, as you've found, is that throats are often 'generous' in length. It doesn't always follow that a big jump will give you less accuracy than starting close to the lands. I have a load I use in a custom .308 where the bullet is jumping 0.167" (that's not a typo) to the lands and it shoots sub 1/2MOA at 1000yds.

The big challenge with .308 is finding the right powder which will a) fit in the limited case capacity and b) give acceptable pressures for the desired bullet/seating depth/velocity.

If I were you, I'd try doing a 'ladder test' using different powder weights and the standard 2.8" load length first and then move on to trying different bullet seating depths to fine tune it. You would also benefit from getting hold of a chronograph so you know where you are in terms of velocities and the ES and SD for a given load. This will confirm you have found a good combination and give you the confidence that you're doing things right.

I have got to the stage now where I can usually get very close to the best load for a given bullet/barrel combination solely by using the data I've collected over the past few years in combination with Quickload software and an accurate chrono. But to get there I've spent many hours on the reloading bench and on the range trying out many, many different combinations and recording as much information as I can to build up a picture of what happens when you change one of the many variables you have in this game.

My approach now does rely on the belief in the 'optimal barrel timing concept' (try Googling it) and that there are velocity 'nodes' you need to try and hit with your barrel/ammo combination and that means there will be more than one optimal load for your rifle.

With my 700, I was always chasing a load and velocity node which would be accurate for the longer ranges (1000-1200), hence my problem was a bit different to yours in that if you don't want to go beyond 600yds (yet!). So you can probably find a load which won't be pushing the limits of case capacity, pressure and velocity but which will still be very accurate up to 600yds with the bullet still travelling well above the speed of sound.

That might be your best bet for now and then you can work up to the next node if you want to move 'over the hill' to the joys of Stickledown on a windy day!

Hope that is some help to you!

[Tomo]

Thanks for the response TCK, I've been mulling over what you've written and have started to come up with the beginnings of a plan of action for my next trip to Bisley.

1. I've arranged to pick up some TR140 from the supplier when I next go down, at least 2-3KG, so hopefully that should keep me busy for the summer.
2. A very kind forum member has offered to lend me his chrono, an offer which I'll definitely be taking up :)
3. I'm going to do some short ladder tests @ 200M using the .168g and 175g bullets I have left. I might do this using the rest of my N550 and N150 powder first before going onto the TR140 (for practice and direct comparison) . I have to be honest and state that I'm a little unsure how useful this is going to be as I've seen a ladder test done at 200M and the target just looked like one big cloud of holes with very little 'climb' or 'pattern' to where they were hitting. I'm willing to give it a go though and will post some photo's when completed.

[kennyc]

while you are at Bisley, why not drop into the Range Office and pick up some 155SMK's to try? the price is good and they work out to 1000

[The Cupcake Kid]

while you are at Bisley, why not drop into the Range Office and pick up some 155SMK's to try? the price is good and they work out to 1000

Have they definitely got them back in stock now?

Tomo - when you do a ladder test you MUST work out a way of recording which shot is which. I know it sounds obvious, but unless you have a system it's very easy to get confused. The further back you go, the more pronounced the results will be so maybe see if you can do it at 300yds because at that distance you'll still be able to see the holes on the target and they'll be further apart.

Also, try at least 0.3 or 0.5 gr increments in the powder charge to begin with, then narrow it down to a one or two loads and test again with smaller charge weight increments.

If possible, shoot 3 round groups at each charge weight. Much more conclusive.

If you can use a chrono at the same time you do the ladder test, you'll be in better shape to determine which load is going to be optimal.
If you can post all the data you collected on here when you've done it, I'd be happy to run it through Quickload for you to see if the best load from testing corresponds to an OBT node. Always interesting to compare theory with practise!

[Tomo]

while you are at Bisley, why not drop into the Range Office and pick up some 155SMK's to try? the price is good and they work out to 1000

maybe at a later date, for now I want to concentrate on slightly heavier bullets (also my rifle seemed to really hate the SMK .155g Palma stuff I tried)

Tomo - when you do a ladder test you MUST work out a way of recording which shot is which. I know it sounds obvious, but unless you have a system it's very easy to get confused

I have a copy of the target on paper, so I plan to chart each shot's position on that, i.e if the first shot hit dead centre I'd mark the paper with the number 1 in the centre, if shot 2 fell 6" to the left I'd mark the corresponding spot on the chart with a '2' etc (having also recorded each shot's powder weight elsewhere, i,e shots 1-3 = 45.5g N550, shot 4-6=46g N550 etc)

I'd be happy to run it through Quickload for you to see if the best load from testing corresponds to an OBT node

much appreciated thank you!

[Christel]

Try to keep your bullets in the shade

[Tomo]

Try to keep your bullets in the shade

Thanks Christel - noted.

I think that photo was taken during one of the brief 'sunny' moments from last Fridays visit, I was using the boxes of empties to weigh various bits of paper down as it was a little blustery!

[Dangermouse]

My long range 185gn Berger loads will not fit in a AICS magazine and have to be single loaded. I have some 155gn SMK loads that I have made up for the McQueen which do and are good enough for the job.

Unless something drastic happens over the summer, it is my intention to return to the 155 or 155.5's for long range work and push them as hard as I can, something I have not done before. I will also be leaving the Viht behind and giving the Target 140 a go,

DM

[kennyc]

My long range 185gn Berger loads will not fit in a AICS magazine and have to be single loaded. I have some 155gn SMK loads that I have made up for the McQueen which do and are good enough for the job.

Unless something drastic happens over the summer, it is my intention to return to the 155 or 155.5's for long range work and push them as hard as I can, something I have not done before. I will also be leaving the Viht behind and giving the Target 140 a go,

DM

I use the older SMK155's and TR140, they work well although I don't use them out to 1000 mainly because I don't bother with .308 for that range I have another rifle which I find more fun