No.4T Advice

[HALODIN]

Hello,

I'm considering buying an Enfield No.4T. I've drawn up the following check list and I wondered if anyone had anything further to add or correct. The No.4T I'm considering is the one listed on C&G's webiste at £3K.

1) Scope is stamped on the left with serial number of the rifle + T.
2) Mount scopes are consecutively numbered.
3) Top of the stock pistol grip just clear of bolt rear should be stamped with scope serial number.
4) Underside of stock on knuckle of the rifle butt is marked S51 (wartime contractors code of the Holland and Holland).
5) Top of the stock pistol grip just clear of bolt rear is stamped with scope serial number.
6) Forward underside of the lower stock section is stamped ‘SL(?) N 74 Army Ordnance Arrow 4 12 E – serial No. XXXXX.

It would appear that point 1 above is probably true, point 4 appears true and based on the description, the receiver is stamped as a No.4T as well. The anti-rotation pegs on the scope rings are also a good sign. I'm going to have a look at it on Saturday, so any advice is appreciated.

Cheers,

Craig.

[huntervixen]

Hi Craig,

Now I am not suggesting in any way that this rifle is not correct, however there are numbers of faked up No4's around (allegedly including the faked T on the left receiver wall)

Some of these are very good and certain very knowledgeable dealers have been taken in in the past, so first things first, I would find out if the dealer has any previous history for the rifle and see if they are happy to guarantee it's authenticity and give you a full refund if it proves to be a bitsa made up job.

This is in no way knocking anyone in the trade, or suggesting they would deliberately sell a faked up rifle, it's just that some of these fakes really are very convincing indeed and apparently have all the "original" and correct stamped markings in the correct places.

Also, same old story, make sure it's bore gauged as most original No4T's have been shot to death and been re-barreled at least once.

[dromia]

It also depends on what you consider as geniune, many of the No4Ts went through various repairs and scope upgrades, just because something isn't right as per the original specifications doesn't mean that a change didn't happen during its service life or the perfectly matching "correct" rifle wasn't put together six months ago in a workshop in Essex.

So drawing up some parameters about what geniune and "correct" is to you would be a good starting point to help determine if its bitsa by your criteria. I think nowadays there are very few No4 Ts around with creditable provenance and as has been said the increase in prices has made it worth peoples while to assemble rifles and has made 4T buying almost as fraught as Nazi firearms.

I'm glad I got my No4T when I did as it has a high chance of being genuine, the £800 I paid for it then seemed terribly pricey but I remember the Pat Walker £200 boxed complete units and bit the bullet

[HALODIN]

Thanks for the reply and your words of caution.

Yes this is my understanding as well, which is why I'm cautious. I collected militaria for many years, so I can tell when things aren't right, but it's difficult if you don't have a genuine rifle as a reference point. I'm going to do a recky on Saturday and I'm sure Chris would understand if something proved to be out of place, certainly I would only buy it on this condition.

What should I look for from a bore gauge?

Cheers,

Craig.

Hi Craig,

Now I am not suggesting in any way that this rifle is not correct, however there are numbers of faked up No4's around (allegedly including the faked T on the left receiver wall)

Some of these are very good and certain very knowledgeable dealers have been taken in in the past, so first things first, I would find out if the dealer has any previous history for the rifle and see if they are happy to guarantee it's authenticity and give you a full refund if it proves to be a bitsa made up job.

This is in no way knocking anyone in the trade, or suggesting they would deliberately sell a faked up rifle, it's just that some of these fakes really are very convincing indeed and apparently have all the "original" and correct stamped markings in the correct places.

Also, same old story, make sure it's bore gauged as most original No4T's have been shot to death and been re-barreled at least once.

[HALODIN]

I hope I have enough experience from collecting militaria to detect something that was put together recently. Patina, active red rust, wear, dust and scratches normally tell the tale, but I may struggle if it was put together some time ago. Obviously I'm not suggesting it has, but I will check nevertheless. I think I can do correct, but I could do with some confirmation of my checklist below to tell if it's genuine. Any words of wisdom based on your own No.4T?

Cheers,

Craig.

It also depends on what you consider as geniune, many of the No4Ts went through various repairs and scope upgrades, just because something isn't right as per the original specifications doesn't mean that a change didn't happen during its service life or the perfectly matching "correct" rifle wasn't put together six months ago in a workshop in Essex.

So drawing up some parameters about what geniune and "correct" is to you would be a good starting point to help determine if its bitsa by your criteria. I think nowadays there are very few No4 Ts around with creditable provenance and as has been said the increase in prices has made it worth peoples while to assemble rifles and has made 4T buying almost as fraught as Nazi firearms.

I'm glad I got my No4T when I did as it has a high chance of being genuine, the £800 I paid for it then seemed terribly pricey but I remember the Pat Walker £200 boxed complete units and bit the bullet

[saddler]

I take it you have at least ONE decent reference book to hand?

[HALODIN]

No, I'm flying blind I'm afraid.

I take it you have at least ONE decent reference book to hand?

[waterford103]

I think Dromia has hit on it --- it's the old grandads hammer that's had three new shafts and two new heads .My Longbranch No4 has no "T" on it and has been ftr'ed twice at least ,however it's correctly bedded and has an assortment of parts ,the receiver is fitted with the bracket fittings which have been off twice looking at the staking marks ,the immaculate barrel is dated '47 and it has a stock which has the Hollands mark but it's too early to have been "sniperised" by Hollands foreman who went over to Canada to sort out their chaotic 4T production .I bought without bracket and shoot it with the Singer type sight ,this appears genuine with LB stamp and ground off peep sight.
And I don,t know or care whether its genuine ,from the hammer rash over the breech to the odd unmatched woodwork, I love the old thing - Savage bits, Longbranch bits M47 bits -- it shoots well and cost little.

[saddler]

No, I'm flying blind I'm afraid.

I take it you have at least ONE decent reference book to hand?

Get either/both of:

No.4(T) Armourers Perspective, Pete Laidler

The British Sniper, Ian Skennerton

THEN - once you have read them both enough times to quote page numbers - go to see a 4(T)

...flying blind is a great way to crash and burn, and with the 4(T) market being so rife with bitsa's, its VERY easy to get burned & an increasingly expensive learning curve.

WHEN you do end up with a nice 4(T) though, DO say come & say hello as I do the leather kit for them

[pe4king]

No, I'm flying blind I'm afraid.

I take it you have at least ONE decent reference book to hand?

Get either/both of:

No.4(T) Armourers Perspective, Pete Laidler

The British Sniper, Ian Skennerton

THEN - once you have read them both enough times to quote page numbers - go to see a 4(T)

...flying blind is a great way to crash and burn, and with the 4(T) market being so rife with bitsa's, its VERY easy to get burned & an increasingly expensive learning curve.
WHEN you do end up with a nice 4(T) though, DO say come & say hello as I do the leather kit for them

+++++1 on these words
Take your time and wait for the RIGHT rifle, there are probably more snide ones available than you would imagine, and most very convincing.
Remember they have ALL been to war and seen much service consequently not all textbook examples as some would have you believe(but still genuine).
Finally buy the rifle and not the story.
Happy hunting