BASC challenges police spot checks.

[M99]

Well done BASC - although...

We are advising members that they do not have to give police officers access to their home for the inspection of security unless the police are acting to protect life and property under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act, they have a magistrates' warrant, a revocation letter has been served or they intend to seize a firearm used in a crime.

Am I alone in thinking that they'll probably just go to the mags, get a blanket warrant and then bill all of North Wales' FAC holders for the legal costs, with the implicit threat of harassment if people don't cough up?

There is no such thing as a blanket warrant - they are all address and item specific - you also need to show sufficient evidence to the magistrate that there is reason to believe that the search is proportionate, legal, accountable and necessary - no fishing trips! They have to convince the magistrate that they believe that criminal activity is occurring at the place to be searched or that evidence of a crime may be found there. Usually, the police provide the judge or magistrate with information in the form of written statements under oath.

[The Cupcake Kid]

I'm just glad I don't live in Wales...

[Blackstuff]

I'm just glad I don't live in Wales...

Me too. This search thing would be a nightmare too!

[TJC]

The police have a right to inspect. If you deny them you are in breach of your requirement to co-operate with your issuing authority.

[Doz]

The police have a right to inspect. If you deny them you are in breach of your requirement to co-operate with your issuing authority.

Indeed. So when the police turn up to inspect your gear when you're out/eating/in the bath/having a cr*p/working nights/whatever, you'll be sure to drop what you're doing and see to them? Sounds most unreasonable to me.
On the other hand:

(BASC) The spot checks go against Home Office guidance, which states that home visits should be arranged by prior appointment at a mutually convenient time.

Seems a much better idea!

[TJC]

The police have a right to inspect. If you deny them you are in breach of your requirement to co-operate with your issuing authority.

Indeed, however:

(BASC)The spot checks go against Home Office guidance, which states that home visits should be arranged by prior appointment at a mutually convenient time.

So when the police turn up to inspect your gear when you're out/eating/in the bath/having a cr*p/whatever, you'll be sure to drop what you're doing and see to them?

Nobody is saying you have to be there immediately. The BASC is trying to stir this up. Read what the BASC have written:

North Wales Police plan to carry out spot checks on legally held firearms and ammunition in breach of Government guidelines and without consulting stakeholders.

BASC's objections include: 2) The police do not have automatic legal powers of entry to inspect firearms security.

Two things:

1. Sport checks are not in breach of Government Guidelines. 12:12b of the guidelines clearly inform a permit holder they have to co-operate with the issuing authority and there is even a clear section referring to a refusal to permit an inspection placing you in breach of your agreement with the issuing authority. If they turn up and you aren't at home and they call you then it is perfectly reasonable to say you would love to co-operate but you are at a football match or whatever and what do they want to do. If they ask you to return you have to be able to answer the question at to whether your decision not to comply is reasonable.

2. The police are not claiming they have legal powers of entry, the BASC is dreaming this up and s*** stirring. Thepolice are claiming they have the authority to inspect. You have the absolute right to refuse. They legally can't arrest you for that but they can turn around and cite you as being in breach of your requirement to co-operate under sec b for refusing a police office to inspect your firearms and in which case they are able to deem you aren't a fit person to hold a licence = you can lose it and then you have to appeal.

I'm sorry, i don't believe the BASC has a case and i don't believe you have the right to refuse a reasonable request to inspect your firearms or security features as per the Home Office Guidelines. The police won't force entry but they can take your licence away.

[TJC]

And to answer your quesion on the spot checks going against Home Office guidance, which states that home visits should be arranged by prior appointment at a mutually convenient time.

The BASC is talking crap by claiming that feature relates to an inspection of firearms. Read the Gudielines and you will find that the only mutually convenient time comment actually relates to a permit or renewal application meeting...nothing to do with an inspection of firearms. I have copied the section below. As you can see it makes no mention of a post issuance inspection:

10.3 Before issuing or renewing a firearm
certificate, the chief officer of police must be
satisfied that the applicant can be permitted
to have the firearm(s)/ammunition in their
possession without danger to the public
safety or to the peace. This will normally
involve an interview with the applicant, a
home visit and an inspection of their security.
Visits should, wherever possible, be made
by prior appointment and take place at a
mutually convenient time.

The BASC is trying to make a section relating to a licence / renewal relevant to an inspection of a firearm. They are two different areas and there is NO mention of a requirement for a mutually convenient time to inspect a firearm in the Guidlines. The BASC is talking s*** I'm afraid.

[billgatese30]

I'm just glad I don't live in Wales...

Me too. This search thing would be a nightmare too!

Is that because the good lady might find out about the stuff you snook in while she was out :lol:

[Doz]

The BASC is trying to make a section relating to a licence / renewal relevant to an inspection of a firearm. They are two different areas and there is NO mention of a requirement for a mutually convenient time to inspect a firearm in the Guidlines. The BASC is talking s*** I'm afraid.

Fair enough, that'll teach me to read the whole thing before commenting. Apologies! :)

[Tower75]

When they turn up to inspect first ask if they have a warrant and if not close the door after handing them a copy of the home office guidelines and telling them to make an appointment. The downside to that however could/might be the next time the firearms holder puts in for a new gun or a change to their FAC, it might take a lot longer than expected because they start nitpicking.

Over here if cops turned up like this they'd be laughed off the property and sued for trespass.

Blu

My thoughts, too, Blu.

Unfortunately this will always be the case when the Police are both the issuers and revokers of a certificate. They answer to no one.

So, if you wee them off, they'll just go; "Ok, no variation for you, oh, and we lost your paperwork, sorry"

I think the'd waste a lot of hours, how many people will be out when they have spot inspections, or in the loo, or simply won’t open the door (some people don’t past a certain hour).

One thing that I’m thinking is, okay, they do a spot inspection, but what are they looking to achieve? Just making sure the gunsafe is still there? Also, why uniformed bobbies? Not to be offensive, ‘cos I’m really not trying to be, but what doest the standard uniform officer know about firearms?

If I had one come round he’d see two section 58 firearms in the corner of my bedroom. Completely legal, but they’ll just see two rifles in the corner of the room.