household insurance

[tackb]

crikey ! opened up a can of worms there!

I'm of the opinion that if insurance companys have a mind to they will always find a way to wiggle out of paying and i believe this is most likely caused by fraudulent claims by people to upgrade there tv for example or all this compensation culture crap with 'ooh i think i've got whiplash'

i will read and re read my documents and if there is no mention of 'sporting items' then i will feel under no obligation to list them? as has been stated already where do you draw the line?

thanks for all your replies folks , much appreciated.

[shugie]

Where does the "obligation" to inform the insurance conpany stop? Do we need to tell our car insurance company that we transport guns and ammunition.

If I do not want my guns insured by the household insurance conpany, and am insuring elsewhere then that is nothing to do with them. Likewise, a woman who has large amounts of expensive jewellery which she insures separately, does she inform the insurance company of that?

If the large amount of jewellery make the property more likely to be burgled, and so give rise to a claim on her household insurance for other items stolen, she has increased their risk and they need to be aware of that to properly calculate the premium.

[Chuck]

If I do not want my guns insured by the household insurance conpany, and am insuring elsewhere then that is nothing to do with them.

WRONG WRONG WRONG Not only are you duping your main insurer it may also flag up on those wonderul computerthingymibobs they use to track fraud claims and multiple insurancs on the same address. I repeat, it matters NOT A JOT what you think, it is NOT your desicion to make.

Likewise, a woman who has large amounts of expensive jewellery which she insures separately, does she inform the insurance company of that?

Should do...again RISK of consequential LOSS and they find out.....house gets burgled and set on fire or trashed....Anyway would it be cheaper doing separate???..once upon a time it sometimes was.

Look people, you must not play games with insurance (and coming up with spurious scenarios), you have all been told the facts on this...no amount of "what if's" will change hundreds of years of insurance law and practice..if in DOUBT disclose. As the law says it is NOT your job to decide if it is relevant or not. Better spend a few quid than lose potentially thousands...false economy to lie.

Guns in cars, probably NOT as you do not do it all the time..but if you are an RFD then YES as car is being used for BUSINESS purposes. Anyway you should not be leaving guns and cars unattended should you.

Dougan good points made there about online purchase...Buyer beware too. Ovenpaa, on the money...so easy to fall foul nowadays.

tacb: no you made a very good post. It has shown just how many are playing games with insurance.. a game they cannot win..I did insurance for some 30 years + I've heard all the "what if's" and not only because I made them myself at training sessions. I've also told people NO CLAIM because of their "forgetfullness" or unwillingness to disclose...I have even seen refusal on DEATH claims too!..

Like I say, your call to take a chance!!

[tackb]

Chuck , i am i no doubt that having firearms on the premises makes no difference to the risk(they are just steel and plastic after all) unless i bandy about the fact to all and sundry then yes maybe i am putting myself at more risk of burglary ? i have no idea of the security at the insurers and it could be something as simple as 'cor blimey i insured a bloke with loads of guns today' overheard in the pub ?

so as preventing my firearms falling into the wrong hands and being used in crime is more important to me than getting paid for them in the unlikely event of their theft AND i was not asked if i had them (i would not have lied) I feel it is of no concern of the insurers (if it was they should have asked surely)

i was not forgetful or unwilling as i'm not ashamed of what i do for a hobby but i am security concious and unless i am asked i will not volunteer the fact that i am a shooter .

surely the best security is nobody knowing you have firearms?

[Chuck]

Security and insurance...two different things...I think that some paranoia exists here (not you perosnally tacb) about who knows what...as for falling into the wrong hands, more chance of your bank details being milked by some call center or entral banking set up in India than losing your guns.

But, the bottom line is the onus is on YOU to tell them, not for them to ask. If you think about it, the list of questions to ask everyone to cover ALl eventualities would take forever to complete would it not. SO: Onus is on you to disclose ANYTHING that may affect the risk..and as I said (and the law says too) it is NOT for you to decide what is a material fact...The fact that you must keep your guns locked away should tell you something aboiut the RISk..ergo insurers should know too.

it is of course the perosnal choice of the insured to tell / lie oir not....but everyone who has read this thread is now well aware of the situation and no matter how many "scenarios" people come up with the rules are quite clear.you MUST duisclose as some insurers my just not want to insure premises with firearms on them...just like some will noty insure you if you are net to a garage, a certain postcode etc etc...

There is legal precedent for this: Looker -v- Law Union and Rock Insurance is one such case..and I remember that case from my ACII course in 1984! Also worth note: Hadley -v- Baxendale re consequential loss! The law is an intersting subject as is insurance, now mix the two....

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/p ... losure.htm

[tackb]

I was not even asked if there could be anything else that 'may' effect the insurance?

I am not qualifyed to risk assess that is a profession in it's own right so please tell me how i decide what to tell them about or do i just inventory everything i own (royal pain in the arse) and send them that book ? maybe i should also send them a list of people who come round before they arrive because they may have a criminal record i am unaware of thereby putting me at greater risk?

whilst i understand your viewpoint i'm afraid i disaggree with it , if i aggreed with it then to be honest i would not bother with any insurance because with your viewpoint it would be next to impossible to claim because there could always be a get out clause so why give my money to someone who isn't going to uphold there end of a deal?

[Dougan]

I was not even asked if there could be anything else that 'may' effect the insurance?

I am not qualifyed to risk assess that is a profession in it's own right so please tell me how i decide what to tell them about or do i just inventory everything i own (royal pain in the arse) and send them that book ? maybe i should also send them a list of people who come round before they arrive because they may have a criminal record i am unaware of thereby putting me at greater risk?

whilst i understand your viewpoint i'm afraid i disagree with it , if i agreed with it then to be honest i would not bother with any insurance because with your viewpoint it would be next to impossible to claim because there could always be a get out clause so why give my money to someone who isn't going to uphold there end of a deal?

As Chuck keeps saying (but you're not listening), it is not up to you to agree or not - Whether you keep your guns secret, and are the most security conscious person in the world doesn't matter...the fact is that historically properties HAVE been burgled (usually for value not use) for guns, which adds to the statistics that underwriters use to calculate risk.

There are a couple of important points also - Firstly, that guns themselves really are NOT a big deal for insurers...unless they are of high value, and this goes the same for any other high value item - different insurers set their definitions of high value differently...where I work anything over £1500 is considered an HRI (high risk item), so for example; if a customer calls in to say they have just inherited a £10,000 ring, the underwriters will insist that the client fits a floor or wall mounted safe that matches the 'cash rating' of the items in it....if the client disagrees, and says they won't fit a safe...then their policy would be cancelled, and they would have to get insurance elsewhere.....however as guns are always in a safe anyway, it is not much of an issue...so although you MUST tell your insurer, if you (like most) just have a few shotguns or rifles of a total value of less than say £20,000 (this upper amount depends on the individual broker/underwriter), it probably will not have a massive effect on your premium (again depends on the company)...but if you have a pair of collectors shotguns worth £50,000, then you may have to shop around for someone who will insure you.

Secondly - The old rhetoric about insurance 'wheedling' out of claims, is simply not true anymore - Companies with an established brand spend a lot of money on claims and complaints handling - apart from huge fines that can be imposed by regulators for handling complaints badly, it is also not worth the damage of adverse publicity to mess about with claims....these days it is all about 'being fair to the customer'....

And thirdly - You yourself asked the question...which means that you have considered it to be something that you may need to disclose...therefore you should...

[tackb]

I was not even asked if there could be anything else that 'may' effect the insurance?

I am not qualifyed to risk assess that is a profession in it's own right so please tell me how i decide what to tell them about or do i just inventory everything i own (royal pain in the arse) and send them that book ? maybe i should also send them a list of people who come round before they arrive because they may have a criminal record i am unaware of thereby putting me at greater risk?

whilst i understand your viewpoint i'm afraid i disagree with it , if i agreed with it then to be honest i would not bother with any insurance because with your viewpoint it would be next to impossible to claim because there could always be a get out clause so why give my money to someone who isn't going to uphold there end of a deal?

As Chuck keeps saying (but you're not listening), it is not up to you to agree or not - Whether you keep your guns secret, and are the most security conscious person in the world doesn't matter...the fact is that historically properties HAVE been burgled (usually for value not use) for guns, which adds to the statistics that underwriters use to calculate risk. oh, ok.

There are a couple of important points also - Firstly, that guns themselves really are NOT a big deal for insurers...unless they are of high value, and this goes the same for any other high value item - different insurers set their definitions of high value differently...where I work anything over £1500 is considered an HRI (high risk item), so for example; if a customer calls in to say they have just inherited a £10,000 ring, the underwriters will insist that the client fits a floor or wall mounted safe that matches the 'cash rating' of the items in it....if the client disagrees, and says they won't fit a safe...then their policy would be cancelled, and they would have to get insurance elsewhere.....however as guns are always in a safe anyway, it is not much of an issue...so although you MUST tell your insurer, if you (like most) just have a few shotguns or rifles of a total value of less than say £20,000 (this upper amount depends on the individual broker/underwriter), it probably will not have a massive effect on your premium (again depends on the company)...but if you have a pair of collectors shotguns worth £50,000, then you may have to shop around for someone who will insure you. but what your saying is that they are a big deal for insurers if they HAVE to be disclosed?

Secondly - The old rhetoric about insurance 'wheedling' out of claims, is simply not true anymore - Companies with an established brand spend a lot of money on claims and complaints handling - apart from huge fines that can be imposed by regulators for handling complaints badly, it is also not worth the damage of adverse publicity to mess about with claims....these days it is all about 'being fair to the customer'.... i'm afraid it is , i've experienced it .

And thirdly - You yourself asked the question...which means that you have considered it to be something that you may need to disclose...therefore you should...

I originally posed the question from a security standpoint?

I'm not trying to be smart here and i am listening to you all but it just doesn't seem to add up to me,if it's so important to declare them why don't thay just say do you have xyz or anything else you may consider might put you at higher risk?

[Dougan]

John where does it tell us that we are obliged to notify the fire brigade if we store ammunition/

How does one know that is an obligation?

How many here have?

This is not really to do with conditions of insurance - The reason I mentioned is that when I came back to the UK 7 years ago, I had to apply for my FAC all over again (previous one had expired) - when I got the final cert and paperwork, in with it was a note saying that I should inform my local fire service if I was going to keep ammunition in the house....so I did (and would remind them, if relevant, if I had to call them out)...

...I also stated to our insurer that we kept rifles AND ammunition - so now, if, god forbid, we do have a fire, no one can say they were not informed...

[Dougan]

I was not even asked if there could be anything else that 'may' effect the insurance?

I am not qualifyed to risk assess that is a profession in it's own right so please tell me how i decide what to tell them about or do i just inventory everything i own (royal pain in the arse) and send them that book ? maybe i should also send them a list of people who come round before they arrive because they may have a criminal record i am unaware of thereby putting me at greater risk?

whilst i understand your viewpoint i'm afraid i disagree with it , if i agreed with it then to be honest i would not bother with any insurance because with your viewpoint it would be next to impossible to claim because there could always be a get out clause so why give my money to someone who isn't going to uphold there end of a deal?

As Chuck keeps saying (but you're not listening), it is not up to you to agree or not - Whether you keep your guns secret, and are the most security conscious person in the world doesn't matter...the fact is that historically properties HAVE been burgled (usually for value not use) for guns, which adds to the statistics that underwriters use to calculate risk. oh, ok.

There are a couple of important points also - Firstly, that guns themselves really are NOT a big deal for insurers...unless they are of high value, and this goes the same for any other high value item - different insurers set their definitions of high value differently...where I work anything over £1500 is considered an HRI (high risk item), so for example; if a customer calls in to say they have just inherited a £10,000 ring, the underwriters will insist that the client fits a floor or wall mounted safe that matches the 'cash rating' of the items in it....if the client disagrees, and says they won't fit a safe...then their policy would be cancelled, and they would have to get insurance elsewhere.....however as guns are always in a safe anyway, it is not much of an issue...so although you MUST tell your insurer, if you (like most) just have a few shotguns or rifles of a total value of less than say £20,000 (this upper amount depends on the individual broker/underwriter), it probably will not have a massive effect on your premium (again depends on the company)...but if you have a pair of collectors shotguns worth £50,000, then you may have to shop around for someone who will insure you. but what your saying is that they are a big deal for insurers if they HAVE to be disclosed?

Secondly - The old rhetoric about insurance 'wheedling' out of claims, is simply not true anymore - Companies with an established brand spend a lot of money on claims and complaints handling - apart from huge fines that can be imposed by regulators for handling complaints badly, it is also not worth the damage of adverse publicity to mess about with claims....these days it is all about 'being fair to the customer'.... i'm afraid it is , i've experienced it .

And thirdly - You yourself asked the question...which means that you have considered it to be something that you may need to disclose...therefore you should...

I originally posed the question from a security standpoint?

I'm not trying to be smart here and i am listening to you all but it just doesn't seem to add up to me,if it's so important to declare them why don't thay just say do you have xyz or anything else you may consider might put you at higher risk?

Sorry Tackb - don't take my tone the wrong way; I'm just being factual (apologies for the 'not listening' comment :cheers: ).

When I'm saying they are 'not a big deal', I mean relative to any other HRI item you may disclose, like a lot of expensive jewellery, paintings or photograpic equipment....depending on the underwriter these things may add to the risk (mainly burglary) when the premium is calculated...

...but guns are not considered anything 'unusual', and advisors will not treat you any differently when you say you have them...

...also, data protection is taken very seriously...so you don't need to worry about disclosing from a security point of view either.