Future of Competition Shooting

[John25]

Title of the debate

The NRA Imperial Meeting is in decline and the format has to change.

(I have left Match Rifle out of this discussion deliberately.)

This is a personal observation, I would be interested in your views. Target Rifle shooters are, in the main, scornful of 'F' class shooting. Many believe that old George's ideal, of simply putting a scope on you target rifle has been abandoned. It certainly has for F Open but with FTR, which came first, innovations and improvements in 'target' rifles and the ammunition or the technology race fueled by the 'F' class 'arms race?

The improvements and changes in F Open certainly require deep pockets and hours of preparation. I would point you to the time when we, as TR shooters, all had Mauser and No.4 for short and long range, if we could afford them. The technical improvements in barrels and actions saw the introduction of Shillen, Ferlach, Black Mountain barrels. Wichita, and Shillen actions were the acquisitions of the more wealthy of TR shooters and they, because they could afford it, pushed the envelope forward with better barrels and actions whilst we 'ordinary' mortals were left behind. This is the way of the world.

Put Jack Brabham's world beating formula one car on the grid now and see how it does.

The vast improvement in the quality of todays RWS ammunition over RG is exponential and it is only natural that those who can afford it will have their Target Rifle built specifically for it.

This is exactly what, only a couple of years ago, FTR shooters did.


I am not advocating hand-loads because, as it has done in other countries, it will push young shooters, cadets etc., off the ranges.

Good quality commercial ammunition will never be as relatively cheap as it was five years ago, again. Even at todays prices, the NRA is selling it's RWS 'cheap'

If you have the money, you can have a rifle built, take it to someone like John Carmichael at HPS and he will manufacture match ammunition for your rifle. You can't use that ammo in the Imperial unless you shoot FTR, but most club opens allow any 'commercial' ammo. So if you can afford to get John to make you enough, and he offers it to others, it becomes commercial. Next thing you know, someone takes a box to his gunsmith and says 'Build me a gun around this ammo.' That's unfair, some will say. It's not unfair, it's progress.


So, the point I am trying to make is, how long can the Imperial Meeting continue in it's present form? and:

Is it time to make more space for 'F' class stand alone and/or 'any ammo' competitions at the Imperial main meeting?

[dodgyrog]

I guess the future of target shooting depends on the future of the NRA. doesn't it. I wonder how long that organisation can struggle on?

[artiglio]

John,

As your post shows, to compete competitively at any level is today expensive, to shoot the full imperial requires considerable time and money and would probably be main reason for reduced attendance.
Maybe an any ammo class of tr would be popular, but most likely would only serve to split the existing entry.
Are F open and FTR not already catered for within the imperial? Perhaps the answer is that the imperial will become a smaller event over time and that smaller more frequent shoots will be more popular.
It might be interesting to see how competitor numbers relate to the number of active tr over the years, it may just be that that numbers in both are declining.


regards phil

[karen]

Just being discussed by General Council by email at the moment but in a nutshell (based on the 2010 survey) its down to cost, ignorance of whats available and lack of advertising what we've got!

Some of us tried to get things sorted after the survey but lack of back up from the previous management meant there was only so much we could do. I have just reminded them of this fact so maybe the new "powers-that-be" might take notice and do something

Fingers crossed

Love

karen

[karen]

Is it time to make more space for 'F' class stand alone and/or 'any ammo' competitions at the Imperial main meeting?

There's loads of space - problem is not enough F Class competitors yet. There's at least a butt or two available alongside all the usual comps plus at least two mornings and other times where an F Class only competition could be held.

If we had all the guys who were here at the Europeans at the Imperial there would be plenty of space for them but noones pushing them to come.

Come up with some ideas and send them to Shooting Committee ASAP and I am sure something will happen

Love

Karen

[Steve E]

This year saw a reduced entry at the Imperial, probably because it was moved forward so that it was in State Schools term time. This meant that there was a reduced entry from the open unit (ATC, ACF) cadets and from those school teachers that shoot, because they were still at school. I also think that this year there was a 'protest' of not entering because the heavy handiness of some of the changes within the NRA. Having the Olympics straight after the meeting did not help as most people had to make a choice of Imperial or Olympics.

TR shooting seems to attract fewer new shooters than F class (in either of its forms). Why? I don't know but I think that TR may have an image problem that newer shooters do not or do not want to understand.
As for costs, everything is getting more expensive and most people want more 'bang for there buck' which shooting issued RWS at £1 a round is not giving them.
Would allowing handloads in the Imperial TR events help?
I don't think so. The youngsters certainly would be left out, as many, especially from the schools and Cadets do not have FACs and there fore would be unable to reload ammunition. Even those that could, would be put off at the cost just to set up to start loading ammunition. It would be the death of TR in the UK.
If handloads were to be allowed in TR (Imperial Meeting) and there was a choice of good quality factory ammuntion as well for those that are unable to load their own, a simple 'corkage' fee per round (maybe 10p) could be applied to subsidise the younger shooters to enable them to carry on with the issued ammunition at a reasonable cost. The problem with this is that you end up with a two tier system or uneven plying field. The one thing that TR in the Imperial tries to do do is keep everything as level (fair?) as possible and the 'issued ammunition' does this as well as is possible.

Most 'Open' TR meetings now allow the use of any ammunition be it Factory or Handloads. This keeps the costs down for those that load their own but does nothing for those that are unable. One Club that I know of, allows any ammo or you can buy handloaded ammo from the club at approx 55p per round for their Open meeting. This year numbers were up, perhaps this is the way to go.

As regards rifles anf barrels in TR. If you get a rifle rebarrelled by any of the reputeable gunsmiths it will now be throated and chambered to shoot the RWS ammunition as standard. No need to ask specially any more.

What are the real answers? I don't really know but encouraging more people to actually shoot competitions might help. Also for the TR shooters and the F Class to stop bitching about each other and just get on and respect each others discipline. Neither discipline is 'better' than the other, just different but both with the same aim of putting holes in the 'V' Bull.

[Dougan]

One of the things that has struck me about the last few Queens competitions, is how they were won with older (apart from the re-barreling) rifles that were not part of the 'arms race'....

...that, and the fact that it's issued ammo, really makes it a genuinely fair competition.

Before RUAG, many complained that the RG wasn't reliable enough (odd fliers etc.), now that a better ammo is being used people are complaining about the cost....

Yes £1 a bang is expensive, but compared to other sports not excessive...and you don't have to practice with RUAG....

I don't think that the ammo is the main problem though, but that it is the overall cost (including petrol etc), also the fact that most are feeling a bit of a squeeze at the moment, and other things that Steve has mentioned.

For the record - TR is my favorite discipline, but I certainly don't 'scorn' F-Class....I actually find it very interesting

[IainWR]

And congratulations to the GB F-class teams winning both matches at the European Championships, coached by ...

Martin Townsend (past Captain and Chief Coach of winning World Championship TR Teams)
Jane Messer (Past Captain of GB TR Team, winner of the TR Grand Aggregate)
Bill Richards (Chief Coach for past GB TR teams, the acknowledged master at reading the wind on Stickledown)
Paul Kent (winner of the TR Grand Aggregate)

I really don't think shooters with a TR background have an attitude problem with F-class!

Iain

[karen]

For once I agree with Iain - i only know of one ex-TR shooter who ever had a problem with F Class and currently I don't know any.

Why would anyone have a problem with F Class?

Maybe its just you John25 :lol: only joking love you really!

Love

Karen

[ovenpaa]

Steve E - Nicely summed up which reminds me, PM me your address please tongueout