Treblinka

[Chuck]

to the Armenians

Jury still out on that one Froggie, but Smarasscozie seems to know more than the academics on this..And he made sure you HAVE to agree with him cos it's law in France not to agree with him.. A vote catching ploy to a minority group, pathetic.

Other than that, yep would agree.

[froggy]

re-
Jury still out on that one
No it is not . The Turks are the only people in the world to deny it. Whether throught forced march, killing, neglect etc ... they killed/were responsible forthe death of between 800K and 1.5 Millions Armeniens.

You are actually wrong in Sarko's role - the motion was initially tabled by the Socialist group... But yes I agree it was a vote catching ploy. However anything that can prevent that mass-suicide of letting Turkish-Asia into Europe gets my

[Christel]

Oh I agree, the jury is not out on that one. Even US has acknowledged that the Turkish were responsible back in (was it?) 1918 for the death of up to 1 million Armenians. One of my teachers from Uni published a book about it last year (I think it was or the year before) and he received death threats from high ranking Turkish people because of it. Had police protection and was relocated.

The only ones in this world who does not, one way or another, acknowledge the FACT that the Turkish killed all those Armenians are the Turkish themselves.

[Chuck]

Sorry you are BOTH wrong, both Turkish and Armenian scholars till working on it. Also there were many forces around at that time including mother nature, not just Turks/Armenians and other combatants. There has also been a great deal of misinformation bandied about by those who have an axe to grind, such as doctored photos etc.

So, until THEY decide I reckon it's fair to say that no one, least of all Sarkozie can start making laws about things that are irrelevant to France (except at voting time!) And that is what this nonsense is about. ... acynical ploy to catch minority votes, we do similar panderinmg to the Asian community, like giving them free reign to do what they like and lws to protect them.

No one was there and there is little dsocumentary evidence so it is hard to tell, there are however many experts who were never there who push this story time and time again. Turkey has a large Aremenian population and send aid etc to them, they certainly do not need teacozies antics to stir up trouble.

What is it that everyone has to feel they must apologise for things that had eff all to do with them these days, it was almost a 100 years ago!

BTW: Has Sarkozie/France apologised for all their mischief

"In the 19th century France established a new empire in Africa and Southeast Asia. In this period France's conquest of Empire in Africa was dressed up as a moral crusade. In 1886 Jules Ferry declared; "The higher races have a right over the lower races, they have a duty to civilize the inferior races." Full citizenship rights - assimilation - was offered, though in reality "assimilation was always receding [and] the colonial populations treated like subjects not citizens." [1]

Following World War I and especially World War II, anti-colonial movements began to challenge French authority. France unsuccessfully fought bitter wars in Vietnam and Algeria to keep its empire intact."

Has Sarkozie been out apologising to all these people?

[Ovenpaa]

... and lets not forget Pétain's government and it's views on jews, ethnics, homosexuals and freemasons.

Just to even things up Froggy, Churchill was also very outspoken about the Kurds and the use of gas on them so we are not without our recent sins.

[Chuck]

KURDS: Murdering heathen kiddie fiddling women hating, child molesting bomb placing vermin - PKK terrorists and sympathisers supported by the poofters in the BBC!!

These are the "religious" backward cretins who do the "Honour Killings" - WHAT HONOUR? they bitch their daughters out to old men for a few goats or to pay off a debt. "Married" and preggers at 13 or less, YEP that's them!

Saddam had the right idea with these troublemaking "people"!

The Beeb see them as "poor farmers and freedom fighters, and support them!!" I'd hang every one of them with piano wire....PKK too!

In reality they are the murdering scum who put bombs on local buses, killing and maiming tourists or taking old women off a bus and shooting them all! They blight any land they settle on, deforest it in no time and turn it into a such a mess even "our" travellers would keep going!

[froggy]

Re-
and lets not forget Pétain's government and it's views on jews
With due respect Ovenpaa may I suggest you to look at it again and not merely repeating general stereotypes - I know history has been re-written in a rather "stalinist way" but ...
With the arrival of Hitler in power and the begining of antisemitic messures in Europe France was "swamped" with foreign, ie : not French passport holders Jews. The position of the Gvnt was very clear: we help you with the alien non French jews but hand off our own Nationals irrespectively of their religion. The role of the UGIF , Union générale des israélites de France, body he created is quite significative, the relative protection French jews enjoyed in the Free zone until 42 and in the overseas French territories etc .. etc ...

Chuck - between 800 and 1.5 Mio Armenians died. Some specific slaughters including the use of combat gas are well documented. Yes, some "scholars" denied the Holocaust and some even believe nobody walked on the moon...

There is a big difference between not treating people very nicely and commiting a genocide, which implies a systematic destruction of a group based on their ethnicity or religion background. Can you please document precicely what genocide you are accusing France of having commited ?

[Chuck]

Chuck - between 800 and 1.5 Mio Armenians died. Some specific slaughters including the use of combat gas are well documented. Yes, some "scholars" denied the Holocaust and some even believe nobody walked on the moon...

Not saying it did NOT happen, something happened. Just more to it than the west seem to realise. The events are STILL in dispute but if you know better - like many others seem to do - I will happily get you into a meeting in Ankara and you can state your findings for the benefit of all concerned.

The Russians and and the WEATHER played a huge part in the causalies. Mass population movements in mid winter.

[froggy]

Re- Chuck,

I am sorry but I fail to appreciate your point.

6 millions Ukrainians died mainly from starvation during the Holodomor but it is accepted a a Stalinine genocide.

The public believes that 6 millions jews dies in gaz chambers , however the realistic & accepted by scholars toll of the Shoa stands probably at no more than 5 Millions and does it make it any better that probably only (sic) a third were murdered by industrial means vs dying from starvation, diseases, hill-treatment, forced march with harsh weather contributing ??

800K to 1,5 Mio Armenians died as a result of the action of the Ottoman Empire. Fact . May I remind you that it represents 60% of the entire Armenian population in Turkey annihilated... It is well documented, including the rationalised extermination throught lethal injections and use of combat gaz. At the time it drew world-wide protest against Turkey even from its own German allies.

With due respect , Turkey has been trying to re-write history and to denied the facts just fly in the face of historical knowledge and clearly shows once more the malicious intentions from Ankara.

We both agree that the current debate about it is only a small part in the greater issue about the deadly threat Turkey poses to all of us. Turkey is not into Europe, Turks are not European & alien to our values and as such must be kept out.

Given the odds and the threat to our survival that the European enlargement to Turkey poses, it makes perfect sense to me that the Armenian issue is viewed as a golden gift and used as such.

About the invite to Turkey, well ... It would be with great pleasure but I can think about much better things we could do there than to listen to some absurd propaganda that equates to believing the earth is flat .

[Chuck]

With due respect , Turkey has been trying to re-write history

The whole of Europe is doing that, especially in the UK by alla ccounts.

As for the rest, I am taking a balanced approach because others know more about it hence nowt set in stone..albeit you have an insight that they lack mate.

No worries, we can agree to disagree for now. Why should anyone just admit to things anyway - just to please others like Sarkozie and his vote machine.