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Blackstuff wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:08 am I'd still love to know what 'showmen' require/have formerly been required to produce at an RFD which allows them to walk out with a load of ammo and a few rifles, seems crazy!

And as far as I know until those FMJ Range monkeys came on the scene the exemption wasn't an issue with public safety at all, no matter how crazy it seemed to those outside the sport (and sadly to many in the sport, too).
The whole s11(4) thing is scary to those that feel the need to control firearms or for many of us that jealously feel we have had to jump through hoops to get an FAC so why should someone operating a range not have to).

IIRC they didn't get done for the ranges or the way they operated it (although that was a safety issue that should have been taken up by the HSE or whoever it is that looks into the safe running of businesses), the charges and convictions related to a separate firearms incident entirely.

Mattnall wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2024 10:14 am

Blackstuff wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:08 am I'd still love to know what 'showmen' require/have formerly been required to produce at an RFD which allows them to walk out with a load of ammo and a few rifles, seems crazy!

And as far as I know until those FMJ Range monkeys came on the scene the exemption wasn't an issue with public safety at all, no matter how crazy it seemed to those outside the sport (and sadly to many in the sport, too).
The whole s11(4) thing is scary to those that feel the need to control firearms or for many of us that jealously feel we have had to jump through hoops to get an FAC so why should someone operating a range not have to).

IIRC they didn't get done for the ranges or the way they operated it (although that was a safety issue that should have been taken up by the HSE or whoever it is that looks into the safe running of businesses), the charges and convictions related to a separate firearms incident entirely.

I wasn't really referring to the FMJ range carry on, or any properly ran/fixed location ranges for that matter, more funfair showmen who can seemingly buy .22 guns and ammo at will with no form of record keeping. I suppose its actually testament to their integrity that the UK underground isn't awash with .22 rifles given that they could seemingly buy one without record and then sell/give it to anyone they want with no fear of repercussions.

While I think our version of gun control goes too far, the idea of anyone being able to acquire/possess firearms legally regardless of their mental condition or criminal past is scary to me, and I would've thought, to the vast majority of people as well.

The Showman's Guild and the NSRA will issue a certificate to show that you are a bone fide operator (although the checks are slim, basically for the NSRA I think you need to be an affiliated club and pay the fee) and sometimes a certificate of insurance will suffice.

The biggest stop to everyone saying they are running a MR range and buying rifles and ammo hand over is first actually operating or running a MR range and then being able to prove to the RFD or other seller that you are doing so legitimately. No self respecting RFD or FAC holder will sell without first being convinced that the sale will not get them into trouble. There are checks in place - the operators have to be running a range or business, the people selling the firearms and ammo will need to satisfy themselves that the operator is running a range or business and can therefore legally purchase the items.

AFAIK it has never caused a threat to public safety so why is everyone so shocked that it went on? Just because it is not minutely controlled by the authorities seems to give everyone the willies. The backlash from FAC holders is often the most worrying - how quick we are to throw those we don't understand (or don't shoot the way we do) under the bus even though the operation is safe and legal. I have huge respect for the NRA and what they do but in this case they are also guilty of not wanting the s11(4) to continue as is.The MR range operators have a harder time getting insurance and buying than an FAC holder, the burden of proof is quite high in my experience, many do not want to sell without plenty of evidence of the authority to purchase without an FAC.

An open and forthcoming outline of the actual process for acquiring firearms and ammo under 11(4) would have helped to allay concerns.

Shouldn't really be surprised at the NRA throwing shooters under the bus considering their form.

To clarify, is zeroing on private land allowed but target shooting (with 22 rifles) not ?
How does the miniature range exemption help, ie would that mean 22 is allowed?

nickredhill wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 9:40 am To clarify, is zeroing on private land allowed but target shooting (with 22 rifles) not ?
How does the miniature range exemption help, ie would that mean 22 is allowed?

There is a big difference between target shooting and zeroing in law but in actuality both can look very similar. If you have a zeroing condition on your FAC then you can zero within the constraints of that condition.

This doesn't affect the MR exemption, or rather the MR exemption doesn't affect what you can do with your rifle. MR shooting in this regard is target shooting and generally the shooter will be using the range operator's rifle(s) and not their own. They can zero or shoot for score with the issued/loaned rifles as allowed by the operator.