millemigliadave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:00 pm
I wonder what the CPSA have to say on this... steel for clays is one thing, but a lot of shoots use land that is also used for grazing. To the best of my knowledge steel shot requires a plastic wad, which even if made from a biodegradable material would likely not degrade quickly enough for livestock to graze where the wads had landed.. I can therefore see permissions being retracted.
No I'm afraid this is incorrect. I have shot a BASC day where they were showcasing different steel shots. One had a wad made of potato starch which dissolved in water in a few hours and was safe to consume. And the cartridge is sealed to stop it prematurely dissolving in the cartridge. Another one used a paper wad, but I wouldn't recommend that one. It was like confetti coming out the end of the gun which was very distracting for a follow up shot.
And only 2-3 times the cost of an equivalent lead cartridge, yet there is repeated remarks in the 104 dossier that steel cartridges are cheaper than lead! Why on earth would anyone not switch to lead if they were cheaper and just as good??
millemigliadave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:00 pm
I wonder what the CPSA have to say on this... steel for clays is one thing, but a lot of shoots use land that is also used for grazing. To the best of my knowledge steel shot requires a plastic wad, which even if made from a biodegradable material would likely not degrade quickly enough for livestock to graze where the wads had landed.. I can therefore see permissions being retracted.
No I'm afraid this is incorrect. I have shot a BASC day where they were showcasing different steel shots. One had a wad made of potato starch which dissolved in water in a few hours and was safe to consume. And the cartridge is sealed to stop it prematurely dissolving in the cartridge. Another one used a paper wad, but I wouldn't recommend that one. It was like confetti coming out the end of the gun which was very distracting for a follow up shot.
Thanks for the info, I stand corrected - and I am glad there's an option as I would hate to see clay shoots on rural/agricultural land in jeopardy, although the comment above about cost must surely be a consideration.
Hopefully a similar wad will be available for cartridges in all gauges - I wonder how steel in a .410 would be?
millemigliadave wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:00 pm
I wonder what the CPSA have to say on this... steel for clays is one thing, but a lot of shoots use land that is also used for grazing. To the best of my knowledge steel shot requires a plastic wad, which even if made from a biodegradable material would likely not degrade quickly enough for livestock to graze where the wads had landed.. I can therefore see permissions being retracted.
No I'm afraid this is incorrect. I have shot a BASC day where they were showcasing different steel shots. One had a wad made of potato starch which dissolved in water in a few hours and was safe to consume. And the cartridge is sealed to stop it prematurely dissolving in the cartridge. Another one used a paper wad, but I wouldn't recommend that one. It was like confetti coming out the end of the gun which was very distracting for a follow up shot.
And only 2-3 times the cost of an equivalent lead cartridge, yet there is repeated remarks in the 104 dossier that steel cartridges are cheaper than lead! Why on earth would anyone not switch to lead if they were cheaper and just as good??
I think the Eley VIP ones came in about £400/1000 so about 30% more than the Hull Pro One's I shoot now. And they genuinely were a very good cartridge from my experience with them. I think the comments around cost are that they would be cheaper when the volume is higher. Steel is cheaper than Lead in theory. The reason they cost more now is economy of scale. If we are all forced to use steel then the cost will come down to be the same or maybe cheaper than lead. The bigger problem is, that after I had finished the steel shoot day (which was at my local clay ground) I then popped into the shop and asked for a price on the steel cartridges that were good, and was told we aren't allowed to use them yet on the main club areas because they would have to change the targets completely to allow for it. You can't have any targets coming towards you or any close crossers due to ricochet risk. So the variety of targets will drop and the simpler targets for newcomers will be harder to achieve. That is what will kill the sport if anything.
Once this has been pushed through and a further 20-30% of shotgun shooters have given up due to unsuitable shotguns, additional expense, inhumane killing etc. etc. there will also be a percentage of clay grounds close down which will also mean a fair percentage of the few remaining gunshops will become unviable - Of course, a few will limp on, and we will be gratefully for the few crumbs that are left, but will it end there?
No - of course not. It won't be long before we see videos on social media or the BBC of birds/rabbits flapping around after being shot with steel shot and claims it is inhumane. "Research" also shows that the leading cause of death in children under the age of 6 in the USA was through Iron poisoning.
1066 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 10:08 am
Once this has been pushed through and a further 20-30% of shotgun shooters have given up due to unsuitable shotguns, additional expense, inhumane killing etc. etc. there will also be a percentage of clay grounds close down which will also mean a fair percentage of the few remaining gunshops will become unviable - Of course, a few will limp on, and we will be gratefully for the few crumbs that are left, but will it end there?
No - of course not. It won't be long before we see videos on social media or the BBC of birds/rabbits flapping around after being shot with steel shot and claims it is inhumane. "Research" also shows that the leading cause of death in children under the age of 6 in the USA was through Iron poisoning.
For the record, I fully disagree with the ban for all the reasons you have mentioned. Just correcting a couple of inaccuracies...
1066 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 10:08 am
Once this has been pushed through and a further 20-30% of shotgun shooters have given up due to unsuitable shotguns, additional expense, inhumane killing etc. etc. there will also be a percentage of clay grounds close down which will also mean a fair percentage of the few remaining gunshops will become unviable - Of course, a few will limp on, and we will be gratefully for the few crumbs that are left, but will it end there?
No - of course not. It won't be long before we see videos on social media or the BBC of birds/rabbits flapping around after being shot with steel shot and claims it is inhumane. "Research" also shows that the leading cause of death in children under the age of 6 in the USA was through Iron poisoning.
Pippin89 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 25, 2023 6:18 am
And only 2-3 times the cost of an equivalent lead cartridge, yet there is repeated remarks in the 104 dossier that steel cartridges are cheaper than lead! Why on earth would anyone not switch to lead if they were cheaper and just as good??
I think the Eley VIP ones came in about £400/1000 so about 30% more than the Hull Pro One's I shoot now. And they genuinely were a very good cartridge from my experience with them. I think the comments around cost are that they would be cheaper when the volume is higher. Steel is cheaper than Lead in theory. The reason they cost more now is economy of scale. If we are all forced to use steel then the cost will come down to be the same or maybe cheaper than lead. The bigger problem is, that after I had finished the steel shoot day (which was at my local clay ground) I then popped into the shop and asked for a price on the steel cartridges that were good, and was told we aren't allowed to use them yet on the main club areas because they would have to change the targets completely to allow for it. You can't have any targets coming towards you or any close crossers due to ricochet risk. So the variety of targets will drop and the simpler targets for newcomers will be harder to achieve. That is what will kill the sport if anything.
If you've found a cartridge that works for you at a semi-reasonable price, then you've been lucky.
Chipping bits off a clay doesn't really take a great deal of energy and the spinning forces take care of the rest. However in order for steel to have the same 'knock down' power for game or heavy targets its widely held that you must go up 2 shot sizes. To do that locally to me and have a bio-wad I would have to pay a minimum of £11.50 per box, and as already highlighted, some of the so called bio-wads don't degrade fast enough to prevent animals from ingesting them so they may not be viable even then.
I had wondered what was going to happen with skeet when shooting at the extreme ends of the shooting area where you get close in crossers (and also have a ricochet risk from the opposite tower), as well as some trap set ups where the back of the housing could bounce steel back. Ever diminishing returns as per above, and yet clay shooters seemingly as unconcerned as game shooters if the last consultation numbers are anything to go by
just picked a load of badly stored cartridges wher the bases are rusty but on cutting open the lead is still free guessing a steel cartrige will corrode into a solid steel slug ? nice if you shoot it ( not)
