Gun storage - exceptions to general rules

[Chapuis]

What can be done however is for the club chairman or secretary to give written authority to authorise a specified FAC holder to take the club gun to that range for the non FAC member to use, providing it is returned to the club armoury at the end of the shoot.

where in law, does the club chairman or secretary get the power to authorise someone to do anything? the law says you can do it, they are now adding on more self made rules that have no basis in law.

The Club Secretary can authorise usually committee members to have Club guns in there possession for use for example on Club underlever nights or .22 Club nights or for use on MOD shoots. This is normally done by working with your Local licencing department. I had a Club Lee Enfield and a Club .308 in my possession for several years that was not on my certificate but the local licencing new I had them because they were informed by the Club Secretary. I was issued with a copy of the Clubs certificate and a covering letter explaining why I had them in my possession. I also had an underlever for guys with out a FAC to use as I ran the underlever night at the Club.

Alpha that may be the way that your club has decided to operate but that is not what the law says. You have introduced extra rules for the convenience of the operation of your club. Rules that the law doesn't require.
I too have been a long standing club secretary of a large rifle club who has had regular contact with both the firearms department who issued our club FAC and with the other two constabularies who cover the majority of our membership.

[paul mercer]

A member of a rifle club may, without holding a firearm certificate, have in his possession a rifle and ammunition when engaged as a member of the club in connection with target shooting. This EXACTLY means a club member can take a club gun to another range for a club shoot, the written authority exists already in firearms legislation, no need for your club chairman to write anything.

Could you elaborate on that last bit, surely you are not suggesting that a club operating a miniature (presumably .22) rifle range does not have to have an FAC to buy/sell guns and purchase ammunition?

That is not what it means at all. What it means is if for example the Club is shooting on a MOD range normally a committee person who holds a FAC and is in possession of a Club gun would transport the gun and ammo to the range for use by normally probationers who do not have a FAC whilst being supervised. A club member who does not have a FAC would never be allowed to swan off with a Club gun.

This is what I understand can happen if a probationer who does not have a FAC wanted to attend a shoot at another club

[dromia]

Yet another Firearms legislation car crash.

Absolutely fine for clubs to apply their own conventions to help them manage a process, however when these local peccadillo's are presented as "law" then the clubs are just as guilty as the certification departments in playing foot loose and fancy free with the legislation and just adds more confusion and another blot on the escutcheon of firearms law.

[DanTheMan]

Yet another Firearms legislation car crash.

Absolutely fine for clubs to apply their own conventions to help them manage a process, however when these local peccadillo's are presented as "law" then the clubs are just as guilty as the certification departments in playing foot loose and fancy free with the legislation and just adds more confusion and another blot on the escutcheon of firearms law.

Nail on the head right there. The law is black and white and quite simple in this case but clubs add their own "extra" layer of rules and then think this is the new law. Unfortunately this dilutes the facts and causes confusion down the line as this very thread has shown.

Could you elaborate on that last bit, surely you are not suggesting that a club operating a miniature (presumably .22) rifle range does not have to have an FAC to buy/sell guns and purchase ammunition?

Look up "miniature range exemption" then you will see that I am indeed saying they don't need a FAC to buy/store guns & ammo that are .22 cal.
I'm only quoting the actual law, see link below, not making up some club or RFD rule that says it may not be a good idea.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27

A person conducting or carrying on a miniature rifle range (whether for a rifle club or otherwise) or shooting gallery at which no firearms are used other than air weapons or miniature rifles not exceeding ·23 inch calibre may, without holding a certificate, have in his possession, or purchase or acquire, such miniature rifles and ammunition suitable therefor; and any person may, without holding a certificate, use any such rifle and ammunition at such a range or gallery.

[Pippin89]

Paul, the miniature rifle range exemption is separate to the one being discussed here and has been cited as an example. But yes, as it stands, people can currently buy a .22lr rifle and ammo without an FAC under this exemption.
It is in fact another case of the law being written one way and interpreted another. It states nothing bigger than 0.23" caliber.... so, in theory, could have .17HMR, .223, 5.56, .22WMR, .22Hornet, .22-250.... but in reality, its "accepted" to be limited to .22LR.
For clarity, it looks like this exemption is about to be closed, largely down to a particular club abusing the exemption and shooting very unsafely.
As for the exemption you are asking about, yes, the letter of the law allows unlicensed club members to be in possession of a club gun. However, most club will take further steps to protect them such as limiting it to committee and/or FAC holders. Bare in mind, that there is no situation where it is ok to have a gun without the owners permission... So the club rules would trump the legal exemption in that situation. Personally I stick to the club rules because I don't fancy risking it and trying my luck in court that the exemption is read and understood as it is written.

Another example of this is LBP/LBR's. The exemption that allows club members to use club guns and other members guns states "rifles" in the wording. The police will argue that an LBR and LBP isn't covered by this description. However, by the letter of the law, they are "rifles" in so much that they meet all the requirements of a section 1 firearm. 12" barrel, 24" overall length, semi auto for .22RF and single shot for the rest. There is nothing in the law that suggests they should be treated any differently. However, police will tell you clubs can't own one for members to use and you cannot touch one until you own it... Again, I'm not going to try it in court.

[Chapuis]

Paul, the miniature rifle range exemption is separate to the one being discussed here and has been cited as an example. But yes, as it stands, people can currently buy a .22lr rifle and ammo without an FAC under this exemption.
It is in fact another case of the law being written one way and interpreted another. It states nothing bigger than 0.23" caliber.... so, in theory, could have .17HMR, .223, 5.56, .22WMR, .22Hornet, .22-250.... but in reality, its "accepted" to be limited to .22LR.
For clarity, it looks like this exemption is about to be closed, largely down to a particular club abusing the exemption and shooting very unsafely.
As for the exemption you are asking about, yes, the letter of the law allows unlicensed club members to be in possession of a club gun. However, most club will take further steps to protect them such as limiting it to committee and/or FAC holders. Bare in mind, that there is no situation where it is ok to have a gun without the owners permission... So the club rules would trump the legal exemption in that situation. Personally I stick to the club rules because I don't fancy risking it and trying my luck in court that the exemption is read and understood as it is written.

Another example of this is LBP/LBR's. The exemption that allows club members to use club guns and other members guns states "rifles" in the wording. The police will argue that an LBR and LBP isn't covered by this description. However, by the letter of the law, they are "rifles" in so much that they meet all the requirements of a section 1 firearm. 12" barrel, 24" overall length, semi auto for .22RF and single shot for the rest. There is nothing in the law that suggests they should be treated any differently. However, police will tell you clubs can't own one for members to use and you cannot touch one until you own it... Again, I'm not going to try it in court.

Pippin89 I was in absolute total agreement with every word that you wrote and then you brought up the thorny subject of LBP/LBR with clubs.
Not that you said anything wrong, just that can you remember the case where a club was taken to court a few years back. I think it revolved around a Browning Buckmark ?
We were all awaiting the outcome of this test case which we expected would set a legal precedent, but as usual it was a total fudge resulting in even further unclarity.

[hitchphil]

Another example of this is LBP/LBR's. The exemption that allows club members to use club guns and other members guns states "rifles" in the wording. The police will argue that an LBR and LBP isn't covered by this description. However, by the letter of the law, they are "rifles" in so much that they meet all the requirements of a section 1 firearm. 12" barrel, 24" overall length, semi auto for .22RF and single shot for the rest. There is nothing in the law that suggests they should be treated any differently. However, police will tell you clubs can't own one for members to use and you cannot touch one until you own it... Again, I'm not going to try it in court.

Pippin89 I was in absolute total agreement with every word that you wrote and then you brought up the thorny subject of LBP/LBR with clubs.
Not that you said anything wrong, just that can you remember the case where a club was taken to court a few years back. I think it revolved around a Browning Buckmark ?
We were all awaiting the outcome of this test case which we expected would set a legal precedent, but as usual it was a total fudge resulting in even further unclarity.

I believe there was a case - a club in London argued LBP/LBR met the Section 2 requirements of 30cm barrel & 60cm overall length & i believe they won - but (always a but...) the judge said it applied to them only & it did not set a precedent case. So each club now has to argue its own & if we did my bet is HO /Gov would react to ban them. Regardless of the fact that in a club setting the risks of public harm etc are possibly less than for an individual with it at home.

[paul mercer]

Thanks to everyone for all the info, a most interesting topic, it seems that some constabularies in England (or Chief Constables) interpret the law to suit their views on gun ownership and those views can be influenced by public opinion and the press, so if we agree that the laws on gun ownership currently in place are sufficient and do not need altering, then the instructions on how they are enforced in ought to be made watertight in order to prevent any difference in how they are applied - a point that I put to our Police Commissioner, but was apparently ignored by the minion who replied on her behalf.
Out of interest, re the use on miniature rifle ranges without a FAC, older readers might remember that fairgrounds used to have a .22 rifle range (usually with ancient pump action rifles - and probably forbidden today!) and I did wonder whether that exemption was put in for them?

[Chapuis]

Thanks to everyone for all the info, a most interesting topic, it seems that some constabularies in England (or Chief Constables) interpret the law to suit their views on gun ownership and those views can be influenced by public opinion and the press, so if we agree that the laws on gun ownership currently in place are sufficient and do not need altering, then the instructions on how they are enforced in ought to be made watertight in order to prevent any difference in how they are applied - a point that I put to our Police Commissioner, but was apparently ignored by the minion who replied on her behalf.
Out of interest, re the use on miniature rifle ranges without a FAC, older readers might remember that fairgrounds used to have a .22 rifle range (usually with ancient pump action rifles - and probably forbidden today!) and I did wonder whether that exemption was put in for them?

Pump action .22 rifles are still perfectly legal as are .22 semi auto rifles.
Yes members of the show man's guild can take full advantage of the laws relating to miniature rifle ranges, i.e. no requirement to hold a FAC in order to possess/acquire either miniature rifle or ammunition. When the laws were drafted no doubt as they would have been considered or at least had some input as it would affect them.

[paul mercer]

Thanks for the info Chapuis.
Re the rifles, your right about not mattering about what action they have, but I was just thinking about whether on not showground shooting with .22 rifles (as opposed to air rifles) was still allowed today. If so I'll bet it horrifies some Chief Constables!