If you could carry would you (2) A case in point FOR

[Chuck]

In the mailbox today:

CARSON CITY, Nev. (CBS/AP) – A gunman wielding an AK-47 opened fire on a table of uniformed National Guard members at an IHOP restaurant on Tuesday in an outburst of violence that killed five people, wounded seven others and put Nevada's capital city on high alert.

Five Nevada National Guard troops sitting together at the back of the restaurant were shot--three of them fatally. Another woman was also killed, and the gunman, 32-year-old Eduardo Sencion of Carson City, shot himself in the head and died at a hospital.

The shooter's motive was unclear, but family members said he had mental issues. He had never been in the military and had no known affiliation with anyone inside the restaurant.

Witnesses and authorities described a frantic scene in the bustling business district, in which the shooter pulled into the large complex of retail stores and shops just before 9 a.m. in a blue minivan with a yellow "Support Our Troops" sticker on the back. He got out and immediately shot a woman near a motorcycle, a witness said.

Ralph Swagler said he grabbed his own weapon, but said it was too late to stop the shooter, who charged into the IHOP through the front doors. (no comment , Chuck).

"I wish I had shot at him when he was going in the IHOP," said Swagler, who owns Locals BBQ & Grill. "But when he came at me, when somebody is pointing an automatic weapon at you--you can't believe the firepower, the kind of rounds coming out of that weapon."

The gunman went all the way to the back of the restaurant to the back area and opened fire, Carson City Sheriff Kenny Furlong said.

When he left the restaurant, he stood in the parking lot and shot into the nearby businesses, shattering the windows of a barbecue restaurant and an H&R Block and a casino across the street.

Officers arrived minutes later and found the suspect and the person who was by the motorcycle wounded and lying in the parking lot. The names of the victims, including the three Guard members who were killed, were not immediately released.

Authorities provided few details about the five other injured people, except to say one was a woman who was found near a motorcycle. Three of those wounded have minor wounds; the others were shot in critical areas of the body, Furlong said.

"You go a whole tour in Afghanistan and no one is shot. And you go to IHOP and several are shot," said 31-year-old Sgt. First Class Cameron Anderson of Reno, a Nevada Army National Guard member. "It's a shock. I came to work today and had no idea I'd be driving the chaplain here (to the hospital.)"

Another Guard member, 33-year-old Spc. Lee Amato, said he didn't know the victims' names but expected they were people he knew.

"It's hard to believe something like this would happen to really good people," Amato said. "It's like a hole, something taken away. It's mind-boggling and hard to comprehend."

The IHOP is about four miles from the Guard's headquarters complex. Nevada National Guard spokeswoman April Conway said she didn't know why the five Guard members had met at the IHOP. Conway said she did not believe any of the Guard members at the restaurant were armed.

"Our guards would have no reason to be carrying military weapons here today," Conway said. "We have no reason to believe that any of them were armed with personal weapons."

Furlong said they're analyzing the shooter's weapon to determine whether it is automatic or semi-automatic.

Nevada's capital city of some 50,000 is normally a sleepy town when lawmakers are not in session, a jumping off point 30 miles south of Reno for travelers headed to Lake Tahoe or back to California across the Sierra.

"I've lived in Carson City since 1961 and I've never seen anything like this," said Fran Hunter, who works at the Sierra Le Bone pet shop just north of the IHOP. "This is the kind of thing that happens in New York City or L.A., not here."



Here are the comments by the sender:

Another tragic shooting, but it should have ended immediately after the first shot was fired by the deranged gunman. Why? Because this is Carson City, NV where citizens are allowed to carry concealed weapons and the shooting took place near a National Guard Headquarter with National Guardsman inside the IHOP.

If you have a concealed weapon permit, then make sure you carry it with you ALL THE TIME.

If you don't have a concealed weapon permit, yet live in a state that offers them, then get one, and get trained, and carry it with you ALL THE TIME.

And my comment for the National Guard is best summed up with this photo:

Note the M16s they are carrying and 30-round magazines on their belt. Do you think the IHOP would have been targeted if these were the National Guardsman? Like Israel, we need to allow the men and women we trust to risk their lives in defending us at home and abroad to be ARMED everywhere they go. If we feel they are worthy enough to trust with a weapon in war, aren't they worthy enough to be trusted with a weapon in peace time?

And my comment for Ralph Swagler is also directed at everyone who owns a gun-- and especially pointed at everyone who not only owns a gun, but carries a gun. Just having a gun is not enough! You need to be trained to levels that exceed law enforcement and military standards. Training that places you in live-fire training simulators to give you the lethal encounter experience you need-- ahead of time, so when the time comes that you are in a position to use that gun to defend yourself and those around you, you are mentally and physically ready, willing, and able to use it-- and use it well.

CHUCKS footnote: Some beliefs that victims mistakenly have and which the antis just LOVE to spout out

This is the kind of thing that happens in New York City or L.A., not here."[/ And just WHO makes the decision where it will happen?


It's hard to believe something like this would happen to really good people," Yeah, like bad things only happen to BAD people, what a stupid train of thought. criminals ARE bad people and the "nicer, kinder gentler people" people should wise up to that fact. Being a defenceless victim and proud displayer of "gun free zone stickers" does NOT make you or anyone else any safer.

You go a whole tour in Afghanistan and no one is shot. And you go to IHOP and several are shot," said 31-year-old Sgt. First Class Cameron Anderson of Reno, a Nevada Army National Guard member. "It's a shock. I came to work today and had no idea I'd be driving the chaplain here (to the hospital.)" Exactly the point I have been trying to make, no one knows when an attack will happen so if anyone has the right to carry then yes, carry at ALL times IMO.

[alan108]

Simple answer, YES, I would, and I would use it in a situation that warrants it.

Alan :)

[Chuck]

I thought it was a good article myself, demonstrates so many things...like you just do not know when it will happen.

Of course in the UK if that happens you are dead..unless you are seriously lucky.

[enfielddream]

Believe me, you can get in a jam if you open fire on a deranged gunman, if your own life at that time is not in danger. In my new member remarks I mentioned I am retired from the Rhode Island Attorney General's Office. The AG is the chief law enforcement office in the state, they prosecute state crimes and they also just happen to grant permits for carry state wide. Here is what would have happened if that shooting happened in my state if Ralph Swagler shot and killed the shooter. (saving lives)
His permit would have been recalled, he would have 72 hours to turn it in or the Rhode Island State Police would take him into custody for non-compliance. He could be charged for that.
Next, Mr. Swagler would have to appear before a Grand Jury to show cause. A Grand Jury ( not a regular jury) consists of between 12 and 20 persons. They are the ones who ask the questions assisted by a state prosecutor. Mr. Swagler cannot have his attorney with him before the Grand Jury because it is not a trial, but an investigation. He can, however, meet with his attorney outside during breaks taken during the proceedings. If things work out for Mr. Swagler the Jury will vote: "No True Bill". If things don't work out, the Jury will vote to Indict Mr. Swagler for such things as 1st degree Murder, 2nd degree Murder, 3rd degree Murder, Manslaughter, Involuntary Manslaughter, 1st degree Assault either with or without intent to kill, and there are a few other lesser charges including Disturbing the peace.
Then there is the problem if one of his bullets kills or injures an innocent party. Big problems there.
The bottom line is that a person with a carry permit is not a sworn police officer. Even with all the training in the world a person is just not a copper.
Also, in Rhode Island even a sworn police officer who kills a bad guy in the line of duty has to go before a Grand Jury for an investigation.
Last, as long as Mr. Swagler only shot the bad guy and no one else, I think he would have gotten a"No True Bill" from a jury of his peers. Rhode Islanders and most of the U.S. (except Kalifornia) are very much against these whack-job killers.

[ovenpaa]

...and here was me thinking America had a more relaxed view on such matters. Thank you for explaining it so clearly.

[enfielddream]

Sorry all, but I want to clear up a few things to my above post.
The Grand Jury also does not have a judge present because again it is an investigation committee made up of ordinary citizens held in secret. The state prosecutor is there to explain the law and to make a recommendation of what the state thinks. The Grand Jury does not have to follow the prosecutor's recommendation. If the Grand Jury thinks there is wrong doing they issue a Bill of Indictment. (TV news:" Early this morning the Grand Jury issued a Bill of Indictment of Involuntary Manslaughter against Ralph Swager in the case of.........." ). If the Grand Jury feels there is no wrong doing -or- there is not enough strong evidence, which does happen, they will issue a "No True Bill." (TV news: "Early this morning the Grand Jury issued a "No True Bill" in favor of Ralph Swager in the case of ............................................ ,when last heard from Mr. Swager and family were on their way to Disney World in sunny Florida" ).

[Sim G]

Very interesting indeed. How long, on average, would these proceedings take? I'd imagine to convene a Grand Jury is as administratively as complicated as a trial jury?

[Chuck]

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-de ... attackers/

[Porcupine]

I think the story is rather misleading. It seems that the citizen with the gun was at best across the street from the shootings in his own or another business. In all likelihood he heard shots, looked out the window and caught a glimpse of a man walking into the iHop - not really knowing what was happening, he put his hand on his gun (or maybe even drew it). More shots (can he tell where from? does he know for certain this is a criminal shooting - it could be cops?). Then the man emerged firing in his direction and finally kills himself.

I remember a feature on one of the American news channels where they took 3 people (none of whom were trained) and gave them BB guns and sat them in lectures. The BB guns were full sized pistols, I'm not even sure if they had holsters for them but they certainly weren't holsters of their choice. They then had a shooter burst in with a paintball gun and open fire. It was clear the shooter knew who had the BB gun and was concentrating on tagging him. Of course all of the guinea pigs performed poorly, only one managed to tag the shooter back but was shot multiple times in the process. Most couldn't get their guns out as they snagged on clothing etc. The point was to try and make CCW look like it is impractical and can't stop shootings. Obviously the test was unrealistic, designed specifically to generate failure - like a =http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi ... yashi Maru but without any legitimate purpose - and is contradicted by countless real-world examples.

In this case, it wasn't that CCW 'didn't work'. The guy was across the street. He might as well have been in Timbuktu. You can't expect people who are not IN an incident to run towards gunshots when that is not their job and not what they are primarily are trained to do. Most CCW-ers will concentrate on defensive shooting, not entry, room clearance, advancing etc.

CCW is legal in the area, but IHOP does have a no-guns-allowed policy and many IHOPs has signs stating this - so it's not surprising that nobody was packing inside. That aside though, nobody ever says that CCW will stop all crime. Even if every single person carried a gun and knew how to use it, you still can't stop someone shooting you in the back of the head or suddenly pulling out a gun and spraying a crowd until he is taken down. But 100% is never going to happen. In the US, 5% is high for a state. Even at 10%, and even when it is not forbidden by business policy, you will still find groups of people together who are unarmed in the same way that you might see three blondes in a row even though that's statistically unlikely. Especially when you consider that certain areas or places will have lower levels of carry (e.g. urban and minority areas).

All CCW does is make it more likely that an attack will be stopped earlier and make the idea of a spree shooting less appealing. Gun control on the other hand is worse than useless. But really, spree shootings are a red herring. They account for only a tiny proportion of murders (but a much larger proportion of headlines and worries); policies like CCW laws should not be judged against them.

...and here was me thinking America had a more relaxed view on such matters. Thank you for explaining it so clearly.

Certainly are. In many states you would not even go before a court for a dead-to-rights (no pun intended) defensive shooting. Some require you to appear before a court in such a case for triers of the facts to establish whether there is need for a trial, but in most it will be up to the cops to decide whether this is a clear case of self-defence or it needs further investigation, a trial, or whatever.

In this country as we have seen in the recent stabbing case, you are almost guaranteed to be arrested and held or bailed for quite some time with the threat of trial hanging over you. And if all your ducks are not in a row, it will go to trial. You certainly cannot expect to be congratulated by the police as you would in most free states.

[enfielddream]

Reply to Sim G: There is always a Grand Jury waiting in the wings to get a case. The term of a Grand Jury is for 18 months. If they do not have a case for that period they are thanked by the state and dismissed. Then another Grand Jury is impaneled for another 18 months. Prospective Grand Jurors have to fill out a questionnair to be sure that they are competent. They must be at least 21 years of age, able to speak and read english and have no criminal record. They are paid by the day, but it is not very much. I believe a regular jury is paid $15.00 per day, I don't know if those on a Grand Jury are paid more. In my state usually a Grand Jury handles public corruption cases that relate to RICO, that is a Racketeer Influenced Corrupt Organization. About 10 years ago in "Operation Plunderdome" the Mayor of Providence, Rhode Island was sentenced to the "Big House" i.e. the slammer for five years. After getting out a few years ago he is now a popular radio and TV talk show host. Sometimes crime does pay!