The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

FredB wrote:My rifle is an original Winchester 1892 with an octagonal barrel. It was made in 1904 and marked on the barrel and stock in Cantonese: "Guan Dung Brigade". I believe that this is one of the militia forces set up by the foreigh legations after the Boxer rebellion and it still exists as part of the Red Army. In the 1980s, it was found in the attic of a house in South Kensington which was being redeveloped.
It is fitted with a Lyman Tang sight.
Fred

That sounds quite the rifle, Fred! Hopefully if the Traf / Historics go ahead this year I could have a quick peek at it.

Scrummy

Scrumbag wrote: Hi Matt, so for the longer range stuff I was planning on entering the "Any pre-1946 Lever Centre Fire Repeater" category - realise not likely to be competitive, doing this more for the interest.

The cartridge should be able to get to the distances OK with some good reloading, the handbook is quite confusing when it comes to classifying firearms, at one point it defines 'centre-fire' cartridges as 'not pistol calibre' (though what calibre has to do with it I don't know, perhaps they mean cartridge size) and then redefine the rifle classifications in different matches.

The NRA coninues to use the dreadful term: "pistol calibre" in its Historic Arms documents and competition entry forms. It does not define what it means by this term and, in fact, allows entries in a lot of calibres for which pistols were never chambered. The most common of these is 310 cadet which features in a lot of comps held on Melville and often wins. I have a letter from the NRA saying that I can enter and shoot with my 8.15 x 46R rifle on Melville. Why not? The real criterion is that the original factory cartridge is within the the range safety limit for muzzle velocity and energy.
Fred

Mattnall wrote:

Scrumbag wrote: Hi Matt, so for the longer range stuff I was planning on entering the "Any pre-1946 Lever Centre Fire Repeater" category - realise not likely to be competitive, doing this more for the interest.

The cartridge should be able to get to the distances OK with some good reloading, the handbook is quite confusing when it comes to classifying firearms, at one point it defines 'centre-fire' cartridges as 'not pistol calibre' (though what calibre has to do with it I don't know, perhaps they mean cartridge size) and then redefine the rifle classifications in different matches.

That is sadly true.

Another example is 200yds Prone - Classic Sporting Rifle (410). In the handbook, it doesn't list which target is used and there is some confusion for me on ammunition / allowable chambering. (Is was thinking I would use my FN Commercial Mauser 98 pattern in a wooden stock with a cocking piece rear sight. Built I think in the mid-1950s but still very much in the spirit of a classic sporting rifle).
The Classic and Historic Handbook States:

“Sights: 100, 201, 302, 405, 410, 415, 505, 648, 667, 710: Open, Aperture or Target Sight”

So far, so good.

Then we get issues with ammunition:

“301, 302, 410: Small or Medium Bore Centrefire”

So, from earlier in the Handbook “3.11.3 Medium: Between 0.33" (8.38mm) and 0.476" (12.09mm) with a design ME less than 3319 ft/lbf(4500J). Specifically excluded rounds include:.45/75 Winchester, .40/90 Sharps, .360" Gibbs, .375" H&H Magnum all of which are classified as small.”

My rifle is chambered in 9.3x62: smaller bore (.366”) and slightly less powerful than the .375” H&H but the Energy Limit is problematic as the classic loading is a 285gr bullet at 2300 fps (2290 fps is the limit of HME with a 285gr bullet). So, “in the spirit” of the rules the rifle qualifies and if .375 H&H is small, then surely the slightly smaller 9.3x62 should also be. But it isn’t specifically excluded… as per 3.11.3

Then there is the question of which target is being shot at:

“Targets: 100, 103, 104, 200, 201, 202, 203: NRA/HBSA Round Bull
301, 403, 405, 412, 506, 508, 630, 634, 664, 665: Sand and Sky”

Notice there is no 410 mentioned in the above. So which target would I be shooting at?

I really want to support the NRA and I think the more diverse ways you can shoot with the NRA (not just at Bisley but everywhere) the better…But they seem to love rules and don’t always make it easy to come shoot with them.

Best wishes,

Scrummy

In the days of Jim Hallam running the Trafalgar meeting he always used to say it does not matter what kind of firearm you have we will fit you in somewhere, if we cannot we will make a competition for you. I would think if you are keeping within the spirit of the originals there would not be many problems, if there is a protest from someone you have beaten (or look likely to beat) they can always bump you up into the next higher class to allow you to compete.

FredB wrote:The NRA coninues to use the dreadful term: "pistol calibre" in its Historic Arms documents and competition entry forms. It does not define what it means by this term and, in fact, allows entries in a lot of calibres for which pistols were never chambered. The most common of these is 310 cadet which features in a lot of comps held on Melville and often wins. I have a letter from the NRA saying that I can enter and shoot with my 8.15 x 46R rifle on Melville. Why not? The real criterion is that the original factory cartridge is within the the range safety limit for muzzle velocity and energy.
Fred

I would agree. Also the term "Gallery Rifle" seems to be a bit flexible...

Update folk, 410 shot on the 200 HBSa target

Update folks, 410 shot on the 200 HBSA target

FredB wrote:The NRA coninues to use the dreadful term: "pistol calibre" in its Historic Arms documents and competition entry forms. It does not define what it means by this term and, in fact, allows entries in a lot of calibres for which pistols were never chambered. The most common of these is 310 cadet which features in a lot of comps held on Melville and often wins. I have a letter from the NRA saying that I can enter and shoot with my 8.15 x 46R rifle on Melville. Why not? The real criterion is that the original factory cartridge is within the the range safety limit for muzzle velocity and energy.
Fred

"pistol calibre" should be stricken from the English language!!!!! Maybe change it to "Pistol Cartridges"

Bryan Austin wrote:

FredB wrote:The NRA coninues to use the dreadful term: "pistol calibre" in its Historic Arms documents and competition entry forms. It does not define what it means by this term and, in fact, allows entries in a lot of calibres for which pistols were never chambered. The most common of these is 310 cadet which features in a lot of comps held on Melville and often wins. I have a letter from the NRA saying that I can enter and shoot with my 8.15 x 46R rifle on Melville. Why not? The real criterion is that the original factory cartridge is within the the range safety limit for muzzle velocity and energy.
Fred

"pistol calibre" should be stricken from the English language!!!!! Maybe change it to "Pistol Cartridges"

I think neither good. Or they can define it better, it would help.

Scrummy