NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

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Mattnall
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#21 Post by Mattnall »

mag41uk wrote:So the simple solution would be to add a "foreign class" as is done with the Historic CSR events.

And the diary shows an Historic CSR going ahead on the 3rd of October - 4 classes.
Classic (SMLEs)
Veteran (No 4s/No 5s)
Veteran Optic (No 4T)
All Comers Iron (Foreign SR)

Perhaps if there is enough feeling and folk wanting it then petition the right person at the NRA.
AFAIK just about all the CSR events are fully booked in advance.
Range space at Bisley has been near maximum for some time - maybe that has changed in recent months.
Yes, a comp which these rifles are catered for so this problem is solved- it would be nice to see a good gathering in the Foreign class.
Arming the Country, one gun at a time.

Good deals with Paul101, Charlotte the flyer, majordisorder, Charlie Muggins, among others. Thanks everybody.
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#22 Post by Mattnall »

Sfwh wrote:
That is not the rule the rules state only Lee-Enfield SMLE's, No.4's and No.5's may enter. Long-Lee's, Lee Metfords, Schmidt-Rubin 1889's, Vetterli's etc all have magazine capacities of 10 or more but are not allowed in. Even Lebel's can hold 10 if you want them too. Also it's not hard to grasp what the rules are I am just saying it's a stupid rule. Can you explain what cost there is to the Lee-Enfield shooters if you allow other rifles in with no other changes to the rules? Exactly like how the one match that does allow foreign service rifle, the any irons division and the falling plates are done. I have never heard anyone suggesting additional time for non-Lee's.
My mistake I was mixing the Historic SR matches with the rules for the CSR matches.
As this started as a CSR league match question I'll come back to topic, the rule of a 10round magazine is there for CSR league shooting. If the rifle has Iron Sights then there is a class for it. Go join in and have fun.
But that is not enough, we all want our own class, which waters down the competition and makes stats a pointless task.
You also have to allow a bit of time to let the word spread that non-Lee's are now catered for you can't expect to do it once and have hundreds of people enter immediately. It will take time for the "Lee-Enfield or go home" image CSR currently has to wear off.
Non-Lees are and have been catered for since it started many years ago. The reason not many turned up to shoot (though a few did, had great fun and were welcomed) seems to be they don't want to and would rather moan about not being included (they are) and where the class for their particular rifle is (it's there, called "Irons").
This is the second time someone has said "you should only be competing against your own score" however that is an argument in favour of letting the foreign service rifles in not against it. If you are only competing against your own score why does it matter if omeone with a Mosin is beating you?
This is the third time someone mentioned competing against your own score, and just like you I was commenting on the previous mention not making the claim.
Ultimately I already do organise competitions without bias to one particular rifle.
Good for you, I mean that sincerely.
(But could I turn up with my 1984C, BSA martini or 10/22?)
Ultimately I already do organise competitions without bias to one particular rifle. It just seems a shame I can't recommend my club members the CSR competitions because there is an insistence on using one particular rifle with no logical basis other than some people get upset but won't give a proper reason why.
The bias is yours, there is a class for 10 round capacity full-bore rifles, whatever the rifle, so if you don't like it the problem is not with the match rules.

The historic class was there for historical reasons, that was the rifles allowed in the SR matches in the past. To Iron/SO/PO rules allow all other suitable rifles to enter.
4 classes is more than enough, some seem to think there should be classes for everything; the Mosin class, the Schmidt class, the older Lee class, etc. There would be little or no take up in these classes and as seen before so many complain about not being included (they are) and when specifically accommodated they don't turn up. Perhaps the AR-style straight-pulls should be in a class of their own, and the one shooter with a M1A - damn he shoots in Irons but where is the American WWII SR class?

At the risk of going off topic:
Going back to the Centenary Armistice match, the idea behind it was to have 100 SMLEs on the point, that was admirably achieved. Some complained about other WWI service rifles not being included so they were added and a couple of takers turned up - it still fitted the theme. But then the No4 owners wanted to play and despite being told it was only for SMLE's and other WWI service rifles at least one No4 turned up. 8-)
Arming the Country, one gun at a time.

Good deals with Paul101, Charlotte the flyer, majordisorder, Charlie Muggins, among others. Thanks everybody.
GeeRam

Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#23 Post by GeeRam »

Airbrush wrote:
GeeRam wrote:
Airbrush wrote:I have a simple solution, ban all old service rifles from CSR matches, they only hold up the matches with their antiquated actions. green55 ;)
Better still, ban all the wannabe Rambo's with their pretend plastic fantastics....... lol green55
Aluminium. clapclap
Ooooh, get you with your posh materials :D

Given your location and mine, does that make you my posh neighbour lol :wave:
GeeRam

Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#24 Post by GeeRam »

Mattnall wrote:
mag41uk wrote:So the simple solution would be to add a "foreign class" as is done with the Historic CSR events.

And the diary shows an Historic CSR going ahead on the 3rd of October - 4 classes.
Classic (SMLEs)
Veteran (No 4s/No 5s)
Veteran Optic (No 4T)
All Comers Iron (Foreign SR)

Perhaps if there is enough feeling and folk wanting it then petition the right person at the NRA.
AFAIK just about all the CSR events are fully booked in advance.
Range space at Bisley has been near maximum for some time - maybe that has changed in recent months.
Yes, a comp which these rifles are catered for so this problem is solved- it would be nice to see a good gathering in the Foreign class.
If I'm still vertical next year, I might enter with the K98.
Shame they are only once a year.
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#25 Post by Airbrush »

Aluminium. clapclap[/quote]

Ooooh, get you with your posh materials :D

Given your location and mine, does that make you my posh neighbour lol :wave:[/quote]

Yep. cheers
Sfwh
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#26 Post by Sfwh »

Mattnall wrote:
My mistake I was mixing the Historic SR matches with the rules for the CSR matches.
As this started as a CSR league match question I'll come back to topic, the rule of a 10round magazine is there for CSR league shooting. If the rifle has Iron Sights then there is a class for it. Go join in and have fun.
But that is not enough, we all want our own class, which waters down the competition and makes stats a pointless task.
I think there is some confusion as to my knowledge the 10 round magazine is only a recommendation not a requirement. As far as I am aware any rifle can enter any irons division.

We seem to be in complete agreement except for the conclusion. I think too many classes would water down the whole thing and leave you in a position where you have no one to compare your score too. It would be stupid to have a Schmidt class, a Mosin class, a Mauser class etc. This is why I think having a Lee-Enfield class waters it down. If I compete with a contempory of the Lee-Enfield I want to compare my score to the Lee-Enfield not the AR-15. Logically their should be either a Historic any rifle class or just have the any irons class and be done with it. I think a specific class for one rifle is a watering down.

Non-Lees are and have been catered for since it started many years ago. The reason not many turned up to shoot (though a few did, had great fun and were welcomed) seems to be they don't want to and would rather moan about not being included (they are) and where the class for their particular rifle is (it's there, called "Irons").
It seems a massive generalisation that every Lee-Enfield competitor is keen to compete and everyone who decided to buy some other rifle just moans. Given how many people turn up to compete at the falling plates, trafalgar and the one foreign rifle match it seems far more likely that the reason they don't turn up is because their is no appropriate division for them and they feel very unwelcome. I have also been shooting for years and never known foreign rifles to be allowed in the CSR competition so I'm not sure when it was that you're saying they tried this and it failed.
Good for you, I mean that sincerely.
(But could I turn up with my 1984C, BSA martini or 10/22?)
Of course you could. Why wouldn't you be able to? I mean if you're shooting at 500 yards with those rifles and hoping for a good score you may be dissapointed but that's your choice to make. Our club groups scores based on the age of a firearm (similar to the HBSA rules) but never requires the use of one particular rifle.
The bias is yours, there is a class for 10 round capacity full-bore rifles, whatever the rifle, so if you don't like it the problem is not with the match rules.

The historic class was there for historical reasons, that was the rifles allowed in the SR matches in the past. To Iron/SO/PO rules allow all other suitable rifles to enter.
4 classes is more than enough, some seem to think there should be classes for everything; the Mosin class, the Schmidt class, the older Lee class, etc. There would be little or no take up in these classes and as seen before so many complain about not being included (they are) and when specifically accommodated they don't turn up. Perhaps the AR-style straight-pulls should be in a class of their own, and the one shooter with a M1A - damn he shoots in Irons but where is the American WWII SR class?

At the risk of going off topic:
Going back to the Centenary Armistice match, the idea behind it was to have 100 SMLEs on the point, that was admirably achieved. Some complained about other WWI service rifles not being included so they were added and a couple of takers turned up - it still fitted the theme. But then the No4 owners wanted to play and despite being told it was only for SMLE's and other WWI service rifles at least one No4 turned up. 8-)
I wasn't suggesting creating a class for for any rifle as I know that already exists. I was suggesting expanding the definition of Historic Enfield to make it less limited. It seems silly to me to insist on a class for just one type of rifle but if that was the case a seperate "everything historic other than the Lee-Enfield class" could be made. If you are so insistant that the any irons devision is a fair compromise then why don't all the Lee-Enfield shooters compete in that one?

Historically the Service Rifle matches were shot with Lee-Enfields as that was all that was available in the same way that the Queens final used to be shot with Whitworth rifles. That doesn't mean that from now until the end of time all rifles other than Lee-Enfields have to be excluded. 4 classes is definitely more than enough and you're right it would be ridiculous to have classes for just one rifle...

I agree if you have a WW1 match other WW1 rifles should be allowed but not a No.4. I think basing competitions on time periods is perfectly fair.
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#27 Post by Mattnall »

The 10 round rule is on the NRA website - https://nra.org.uk/learn-to-shoot/csr-pr/ and scroll down to "Equipment".
Many of the practices involve double exposures, these would be fine for the first two exposures with 5 round rifles but the 3rd exposure would cause trouble and the time between double exposures isn't long enough to reload - the shooter would lose at least one and a half exposures at least. Fumbling on the firing point reloading whilst everyone else is shooting is not a good idea, and some practices involve a double exposure and then a run down straight after followed by another couple of double exposures. It gets messy.

There is nothing to stop any competitor comparing their scores with anyone else's, the stats dept just aren't going to be doing it for you at the moment.

I believe the old SR comps were just for SMLE/No1 and No4 so the historic name of the class refers to the old historical match not the old rifles (but it just so happened the rifles were just British Service Rifles of the time).
Arming the Country, one gun at a time.

Good deals with Paul101, Charlotte the flyer, majordisorder, Charlie Muggins, among others. Thanks everybody.
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#28 Post by Sfwh »

Mattnall wrote:The 10 round rule is on the NRA website - https://nra.org.uk/learn-to-shoot/csr-pr/ and scroll down to "Equipment".
Many of the practices involve double exposures, these would be fine for the first two exposures with 5 round rifles but the 3rd exposure would cause trouble and the time between double exposures isn't long enough to reload - the shooter would lose at least one and a half exposures at least. Fumbling on the firing point reloading whilst everyone else is shooting is not a good idea, and some practices involve a double exposure and then a run down straight after followed by another couple of double exposures. It gets messy.

There is nothing to stop any competitor comparing their scores with anyone else's, the stats dept just aren't going to be doing it for you at the moment.

I believe the old SR comps were just for SMLE/No1 and No4 so the historic name of the class refers to the old historical match not the old rifles (but it just so happened the rifles were just British Service Rifles of the time).
Page 8 of the CSR handbook under Rifles, Ammunition and Equipment:

"Rifles should have either a detachable or internal magazine ideally capable of holding a minimum of 10 rounds".

If the name refers to only the match and not the rifle then all the more reason to not restrict the rifle. Also the modern matches are almost nothing like the old musketry practices anyway. For example in the original 1914 Musketry qualification which I believe is what the Historic Enfield match is loosely based on there were 25 practices (stages). Of those 25 practices 24 of them required the shooter to start with only 5 rounds in the rifle. The other one required the rifle to be unloaded at the start. This insistence on 10 rounds is merely a concession to modern shooters not liking to reload.
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Mattnall
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#29 Post by Mattnall »

So two sources state 10 round magazine or capacity.
So all the 5round rifle are out of luck and there is already extant a class for all the other 10 round capacity rifles with or without iron sights.

Job done.
Arming the Country, one gun at a time.

Good deals with Paul101, Charlotte the flyer, majordisorder, Charlie Muggins, among others. Thanks everybody.
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#30 Post by DanTheMan »

Sfwh wrote: This insistence on 10 rounds is merely a concession to modern shooters not liking to reload.
Not true, plenty of practices involve a magazine change during the target exposure.
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