NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

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Sfwh
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#31 Post by Sfwh »

Mattnall wrote:So two sources state 10 round magazine or capacity.
So all the 5round rifle are out of luck and there is already extant a class for all the other 10 round capacity rifles with or without iron sights.

Job done.
We can just ignore the official rule book and the fact that you can physically see shooters with sub 10 round guns in the any Irons division then.

Job done? What job? Confused what the end goal was here? To repeat the rules because you think I don't know them? In the original post I said I knew what the rules were I just thought they should be changed and if people didn't agree I was curious what their reasoning was? What the rules are is not a reason for not changing them.

I am still genuinely curious why people feel that foreign rifles would ruin the Historic Enfield class assuming no timing concessions were given. This is already how it is done in the historic service rifle match. It seems very strange to me how hard people are willing to argue to make sure certain rifles can't compete when it wouldn't affect those who already take part at all.
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#32 Post by Mattnall »

I am unaware anyone has shot in irons with sub-10rnd rifles, or indeed in any other class. What rifles are you talking about?

I thought the end goal was to allow the non-Enfield old rifles to shoot, they can in one of the classes already available (subject to a minimum capacity of 10).
If the actual goal was to change the rules because you want to shoot something that the competition is not designed for then petition the NRA and get loads of like minded shooter to back you, it had been tried before but when asked to enter there was one excuse or another and next to nobody turned up.
Or put on a match that suits the way you want to shoot.

Why do you feel the need to enter the CSR event when there is no class for the rifle you want to shoot and the CoF is not designed for?
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#33 Post by channel12 »

DanTheMan wrote:
Sfwh wrote: This insistence on 10 rounds is merely a concession to modern shooters not liking to reload.
Not true, plenty of practices involve a magazine change during the target exposure.
Correct, we have shot American service rifle courses of fire based on the Garand which require magazines of 2 and 8 rounds and we have shot some CoF with 2 mags of 5 rounds.

If Sfwh wishes to shoot CSR then they should either enter the appropriate class for the rifle they wish to use or acquire the appropriate rifle type for the class they want to compete in, ie enter irons class or buy a SMLE, No4 or No5. It's really that simple
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#34 Post by Sfwh »

Ok well the point of my original post was that the CSR competitions already go to the trouble of seperating people by the type of rifle they shoot. As with all shooting divisions this is so that you're not forced to buy the most modern firearm possible. It gives shooters the choice to shoot what they want whilst still allowing them to be competitive. Modern rifles with practical optics, service optics or iron sights all have their own division as do Historic Enfields. Any outside observer would logically assume that if you wanted to shoot an old gun competitively the obvious division to join would be the only one catering to historic rifles.

My original post merely asked the question do people think the rules should be expanded so these people have a chance to be competitive. The passion with which everyone has argued against this shows the answer is clearly a resounding no. These people should buy Lee-Enfields, compete against modern rifles or f*** off.

I also asked why people felt it was important to maintain this rule but everyone just repeated what the rule was so I think it's best to draw a line under this and I just won't compete where I'm clearly not welcome.
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#35 Post by bradaz11 »

Sfwh, I think the issue is it is a bit of a circular argument. no solution other than add a division is really an answer. historic SR is not about historic rifles, its about the origin of the sport.
loosing that division sounds to be a bad thing. competing in irons is unfair in your eyes as you are at a disadvantage. so the only solution is to add a division for pre vietnam rifles to exclude the ar15 variants, but they aren't going to add a division for one voice, so you have to have shooters who enter wanting a new division. which means you need to enter irons and then call for a new division, along with a load of others, but you don't want to enter as you won't be competitive. it's either that or they have to ban more modern stuff (70 year old designs modern?) from iron sights.
the point still stands that 5 round mags arent great for double exposures, so unless you can pop in 1 or 2 rounds at a time in between exposures then they would need to redesign the CoF.
seems far easier to try to come up with something that is based on 5 rounds and use that for historic rifles.
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#36 Post by RDC »

Sfwh wrote:
Page 8 of the CSR handbook under Rifles, Ammunition and Equipment:

"Rifles should have either a detachable or internal magazine ideally capable of holding a minimum of 10 rounds".
The language used does not make it clear that 10 round minimum capacity is mandatory. Both 'should' and 'ideally' are suggestions, not mandatory.

The word 'must' instead of 'should', along with removing 'ideally' makes it a mandatory statement.

"Rifles must have either a detachable or internal magazine capable of holding a minimum of 10 rounds".


wtf
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#37 Post by Mattnall »

From the NRA about page on CSR:
Equipment
The requirements for CSR are a centrefire rifle with the ability to hold a minimum of 10 rounds. More is OK, less isn’t.
I'm guessing the Handbook was written without the little bit of extra care in the language that was needed. 'Should' for 'Must' is a common mistake, if indeed it was, but it certainly is clear on the website.
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Mattnall
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#38 Post by Mattnall »

Mattnall wrote:From the NRA about page on CSR:
Equipment
The requirements for CSR are a centrefire rifle with the ability to hold a minimum of 10 rounds. More is OK, less isn’t.
I'm guessing the Handbook was written without the little bit of extra care in the language that was needed. 'Should' for 'Must' is a common mistake, if indeed it was, but it certainly is clear on the website.
I have had word from the writer of the Handbook and the choice of words used was deliberate. The intention was to not specifically exclude rifles of less than 10 rounds capacity so that shooters could compete in 'Any Irons' if they did not fit anywhere else, with a possible tweeking of the timings down to the approval of the Match Director on the day.
The website is in contradiction to the Rulebook which should take precedence.

So even if you have a sub10 capacity rifle there is possibility to shoot, it might take prior notice to the organisers and it'll be in Any Irons - if enough enter maybe it'll prompt a new class but if only one or two take it up then things will most likely not change.
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#39 Post by andrew375 »

I shot in the Imperial csr competition, iron sights class, a few weeks ago. If you were there I was the one shooting the K31....left handed.

Firstly I read the competition rules and though the courses of fire clearly favoured ARs, 10+round magazines and telescopic sights I accepted them and planned my tactics to do the best I could. For instance, I didn't bother with the long range matches and for the other stages I decided to go for 7 good shots rather than rush to get down 10. In the event I sometimes managed to slip in 2 rounds in between exposures.

The main issues I had were in seeing the targets! The figure 11s blended quite well with the backstop and the Hun's head though actually easier to resolve is still pretty small at 300 yards. With a telescopic sight, finely adjustable in windage and elevation plus a mil dot reticule this wouldn't be a problem obviously, but I all I had was Mk.1 eyeball and sights that are only adjustable in 100 metre steps. In the end I aimed at the top of the target support stick and slightly to the left. Again I accepted these handicaps as they were clearly the rules I signed up to. What annoyed me though were not being allowed to use a ground sheet during the sighting in period (bipod, 10x telescopic sights, match triggers ok but a ground sheet is beyond the pale? ) and then I had someone complaining that I was using a spotting scope during a sighting in session, at 300 yards on a hun's head and spotting discs only about an inch and a half diameter. What's the point of allowing sighting in and then preventing the shooter from being able to see where they hit? Apparently, as I was shooting a "historic " class rifle I should have been using either period binoculars or telescope! GIVE ME A BREAK! Of course I wasn't shooting in the "historic " class anyway.

As for the limiting entry to the historic class to Lee Enfields. Firstly the rules are quite clear about what rifles qualify, though a purist would question the inclusion of No.4s and No.5s. In any case there weren't many entries for that class.

To understand the reasoning behind the rules you need to look at the origin of the competition. My recollection is that it started in the mid '80s when some naughty people wanted to use L1A1 (FAL), then the British army service rifle, in some of the Imperial matches. Pointing out that the NRA charter emphasised the use of the service rifle and service ammunition in competitions. A a result the csr matches were established. Rifles used were mainly varieties of FAL with the odd m1 garand, m14, ar 10,15 and 180 and H&K or SIG. Of course all that ended with the 1988 firearm amendment act that criminalised the legal ownership of such things. But the rules don't appear to have changed to take into account being restricted to manually operated rifles. As I pointed out to a friend, if I still had my Sturmgewehr I would have done quite well, despite ironsights and no windage adjustments. I could be wrong on the above, its just my recollection and impression.

But again the rules are quite clear and, as in any competition, if you don't agree with them you don't have to take part. For me, I think the historic class should be renamed the "Lee Enfield" or "British historic " class and include P14s.
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Re: NRA Civilian Service Rifle Historic Division

#40 Post by IainWR »

Call for amendments to the NRA Handbooks for 2021 will go live tomorrow. If you want something changed, contact your discipline / regional rep, who will be able to submit proposals.
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