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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:44 pm 
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https://misesuk.org/2014/12/22/the-british-constitution-and-the-right-to-keep-and-bear-arms-for-defence/

Yes I know it's a few years old but I've only just seen it and found it an interesting read.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:54 am 
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Cops because they have always carried firearms under the common law, exercising their (and your) right to be capable of defending themselves; and bad guys because, the anecdotal evidence is, when they claim that a firearm in their possession is for their own defence, they are not charged.

Erm......... no !!!

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:52 am 
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I didn't say I believed his conclusions, but it's an interesting essay.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:10 pm 
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If you gave up before reaching the end, the author adds this in the Comments section:

A propos dope peddlers (& others who may need to be armed in order to conduct an illegal trade in relative safety) not being prosecuted when found to be armed: we did say the evidence is anecdotal, the anecdotes in question coming from retired police officers. It would be nice to have some harder evidence than this. One’s guess would be that any such defensive weaponry would be confiscated on arrest, but no prosecution brought lest a knowledgeable counsel raise the question of the constitutional right in court—a cat that Government & Messrs Plod most certainly don’t want to see leap yowling out of their bag.

The common-law right to bear arms for defence of life, liberty, property & chastity is of course recognized tacitly by Government, as witness the arming of policemen (for they have no other authority), and it was Richard Law’s and my contention in Does the Trigger Pull the Finger? that some upright civil servant recognized this in drafting the 1920 Act, in calling firearm registration documents certificates. They couldn’t be called “licences” because that would imply a permission, and under the BoR 1689 that was already recognized as unnecessary. (The phrase “as allowed by law” in the BoR refers to the common law; it doesn’t mean “as allowed by the Firearms Acts that some paranoid clown will dream up in a few centuries’ time”.) Hence our further contention that only sporting arms require registration/certification. Of course that’s a trifle too logical for the more costive among our law makers and enforcers.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:50 pm 
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The Police ( and military ) dont have the "right" to bear arms under common law !

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 5:00 pm 
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breacher wrote:
The Police ( and military ) dont have the "right" to bear arms under common law !


Out of curiosity, what form does an armed police officer's authorisation to possess a firearm for self defence take? Is it an FAC, permit, letter from the CC?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:02 pm 
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Racalman wrote:
breacher wrote:
The Police ( and military ) dont have the "right" to bear arms under common law !


Out of curiosity, what form does an armed police officer's authorisation to possess a firearm for self defence take? Is it an FAC, permit, letter from the CC?


Agents of the crown.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:50 pm 
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breacher wrote:
Racalman wrote:
breacher wrote:
The Police ( and military ) dont have the "right" to bear arms under common law !


Out of curiosity, what form does an armed police officer's authorisation to possess a firearm for self defence take? Is it an FAC, permit, letter from the CC?


Agents of the crown.


Not sure what that means but playing devil's advocate, the ACPO manual on the police use of firearms has this to say:

THE LAW RELATING TO THE USE OF FORCE
3.1 The issuing of a firearm to a police officer does not, of itself, constitute a use of force. It is only when a police officer makes use of a firearm (for example by pointing
or by firing) that the considerations contained in this chapter become relevant.

The law is contained within ...

Section 3 Criminal Law Act 1967 and Section 3 Criminal Law Act (Northern Ireland) 1967
3.2 ‘A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in the effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected
offenders or of persons unlawfully at large’

Section 117 Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 and Article 88 Police and Criminal Evidence (Northern Ireland) Order 1989
3.3 ‘Where any provision of this Act or Order
(a) confers any power on a constable; and
(b) does not provide that the power may only be exercised with the consent of some other person other than a police officer, the officer may use reasonable force, if necessary, in the exercise of the power.’

Common Law
3.4 The Common Law has always recognised the right of self-defence.


Oh look here ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:27 pm 
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Yes - we have a right to self defence under common law.

But carrying ANYTHING intending to use it for that purpose is in itself illegal ( offensive weapon, intended )

We are permitted to "instant arm" - pick up whatever comes to hand.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:43 pm 
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breacher wrote:
Yes - we have a right to self defence under common law.

But carrying ANYTHING intending to use it for that purpose is in itself illegal ( offensive weapon, intended )

We are permitted to "instant arm" - pick up whatever comes to hand.


And this is where that has led to:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/c ... 74676.html

I don't have much sympathy for Sir Craig Mackey - he should have ordered his driver to give Masood a taste of his own medicine and run the b****** down. Instead fleeing was high on his agenda. But at least he now appreciates how helpless the ordinary citizen in the street is when confronted with violence. Not that will help us - but ordinary coppers will probably be more protected and armed. Try to be standing next to one when a knife-wielding nutter threatens you.


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