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I seem to read a lot about 'Sub MOA' rifles, in fact it would appear that if your rifle does not bug hole at 100 yards it is best left in the cabinet or replaced with a 'decent gun' This set me thinking. I was always delighted to see a sub 5" group with my first No1 Mk3* and to this day I have a couple of .303's that make me smile if I get under 2.5" Equally my M1930 Mauser shoots around 2.5" and I have had great fun with rifles that were hard pushed to beat 6" so should they all be binned in favour of something more accurate?

I would say emphatically NO WAY! However I am curious to hear what other people think, do you have a favourite rifle that is hard pushed to shoot MOA yet is always near the front of the cabinet? At what point (Dependant on application) do you say enough and retire the rifle?

Ovenpaa wrote:I seem to read a lot about 'Sub MOA' rifles, in fact it would appear that if your rifle does not bug hole at 100 yards it is best left in the cabinet or replaced with a 'decent gun' This set me thinking. I was always delighted to see a sub 5" group with my first No1 Mk3* and to this day I have a couple of .303's that make me smile if I get under 2.5" Equally my M1930 Mauser shoots around 2.5" and I have had great fun with rifles that were hard pushed to beat 6" so should they all be binned in favour of something more accurate?

I would say emphatically NO WAY! However I am curious to hear what other people think, do you have a favourite rifle that is hard pushed to shoot MOA yet is always near the front of the cabinet? At what point (Dependant on application) do you say enough and retire the rifle?

I totally agree. The fun (for me) is in the shooting, not the accuracy of a rifle and in any case the accuracy of a rifle is relative to the expectations of the shooter. My 257 AI shoots about 1.7 MOA with the current loads I have for it and it's good enough for me because I enjoy shooting it. My 22 Hornet can't get on to the target at 300m (although I keep trying!) but it's a cracking rifle at 200m or less.

I would be inclined to retire a rifle used against live targets sooner than one purely for target work, because I don't want the animal to suffer unnecessarily whereas I'm not as concerned about the ethical treatment of paper targets...

I have never chased small groups I'm happy if I get on target. My main interest over the years has been military rifles. The most exotic rifle I have ever owned is a Steyr SSG P1 it shoots were you point it and that's good enough for me.

No need to put clover leaf into target when you are shooting a Smelly, it is the shooting in itself for me, and if you do get a good group GREAT!
I spend a lot of time weighing bullets and trickling powder to try and get the best out of mine but would not have half the enjoyment if I was doing it for some soulless tack driver.
Other people might not see the point of this and only aim ( ) for sub MOA and fair play to them, I am happy for them to do that, but when I am making a noise and smoke with my Snider, Enfields, Martinis or Lee Enfields, and yes trying to get a good group, then that is my happy place. I have had some stonking 303s in the past but the vast majority were never meant to be target rifles and should not be compared. Likewise, your target rifle could not happily function at 20 - 30 shots per minute after a month in the trenches or after travelling from Norway to India with only a pull through and wipe down before use.
Any way, whatever makes us grin is what I am saying

Being a target shooter primarily, I like to chase small groups purely because I need to, in order to be able to compete. I chose the calibre for my fullbore rifle that I want purely because I have a chance at possible getting 1/2-1/4" MOA accuracy.

(Still want a straight pull for something a little less precise, and a bit more fun)

My RPA Quadlock / Boarder barrelled Gemini 'VBull Driller thing' will shoot 1/4 moa if bolted down to concrete however when strapped to me 1/2 to 1 moa depending on how well I read the wind. That's for serious competition shooting.

My Anschutz 1813 .22" in a 2213 metal stock will also shoot ~1/2 moa - it was for 'serious' competition shooting but is more fun at 300yds with std Lapua 22 ammo! where i can get 2moa out of it on a good day. clapclap

My No4 Mk 2 .303" was 4moa out the factory, been fettled & bogged about with so now shoots about 1 moa & is fun & for fun competition shooting (falling plates, CSR etc).

Then I bought a 1942 Mossy Mule 54R .................... aaarggh

It can be very difficult to truly measure the grouping ability of a rifle, I know that the groups I shoot with all of my rifles are compromised by conditions on the day, my shooting ability my deteriorating eyesight and the type of sights these guns carry.

Therefore my judgement of a guns grouping ability is always relative to the above impediments, so do I have 1/2 moa guns? I don't know but I have many guns that I can get sub 2 moa groups with regularly. That does for me.

hitchphil wrote:
Then I bought a 1942 Mossy Mule 54R .................... aaarggh

Calling a Vintovka Mosina a "Mossy" is wrong Comrade....report immediately to your nearest re-education centre or the Gulag awaits

Seriously though none of my rifles (AKs, SKS, Mosin 91/30 and Dragunov) will achieve 1 MOA but not bothered in the slightest.After careful bedding my '39 91/30 will do around 3-4 MOA on a good day with milsurp and the Dragunov around 1.5- 2 MOA, also with milsurp (it has done sub 1 MOA with expensive match ammo but price to Imperialistic for my taste).
All of them drop Fig11s no problem, 800m with the Dragunov/milsurp is no problem if I do my bit, which is along the lines of the sort of shooting they were designed for.

I have seen folks at my club on the verge of throwing their toys out the pram as they fail to put every round through the same hole with an old service rifle because they have forgotten what they are shooting and what it was ultimately designed for.....which wasn't pin-point accuracy.

Sub moa is a product of modern manufacturing and quality control. So the term can't be held against anything that's not been made in the last 20 years.

Plenty of 20 year old and much older rifles can do it but these days you can buy a £600 Gun that'll do it out of the box which is amazing.

Most cheap cars will do 100mph out of the dealership but wouldn't get rid of all your vintage cars because they can't do 100!

Oddly enough probably the most accurate Pre-45 action rifle I shot was an Ersatz Mosin Sniper that would return 5 shot 1" groups with ease with Light Ball. It lost favour with the Viking however the new custodian was delighted with it and its shooting ability.

Memorable older accurate rifles include an M41B that would put 10 shots into a 1" patch on a 100m tunnel range yet seemed to sulk at anything over 500.

Personally I enjoy pushing any of them beyond their accuracy limits, a 100 year old .22 Rimfire at 125 yards is a perfect example.